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  • TGC side spin hook issue

    The more and more threads I read, the more I'm thinking this could be a TGC issue. Users of both GC2 and skytrak seem to have hook side spin issue in TGC but not on any range or other software or in real life for that matter.
    with the gc2 I can see my readouts. In TGC a 1000 side spin with 1-2 degree right will hook from right of green to left and off of the green. On the range In FR1 software those same numbers produce a nice realistic draw (actually starts right and ends maybe 5-10 feet left of target line). Really even a 300 left side spin will act more like a hook than a draw.

    I have read about 10 separate threads on people with this issue and none seem to have figured it out.

    my only solution was to decrease side spin values in gsx to make it more realistic. But that won't be allowed in tournament play.

  • #2
    How often does this happen? Or is it on every shot? Is it possible that TGC spin calculations are a little more punishing for the console players? And that carries over into sim play?

    As for adjusting your spin values to make them more realistic. I will let Mthunt (GC2 user) answer that one.

    Comment


    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Happens on every Shot as long as spin over 300.

  • #3
    I have a gc2 and see the same thing. I hardly ever get out to play on an actual course, but now when I do I hit it much straighter than I used to since it is more punishing. I used to play a big draw that ended up straight but now I hit it pretty straight. I have thought it is a little odd which things gc2 users are allowed to tweak (putting forgiveness of 2 and driver boost up to 5%). Personally I just do the putting. If you think the distance algorithm was off it seems unlikely it would only be off for drivers.

    I know other systems have more leeway with adjustments since they measure the club and are doing more calculations to get ball spin. The idea with those is adjust it to what you see on the course. I'm sure if you had a protee and skytrak or gc2 you could adjust the protee to show similar numbers. At the same time, if I just had a protee I'm bet I would have turned down the spin to show my normal ball flight rather than making it match gc2 numbers since the gc2 seems to exaggerate ball curvature.

    At the end of the day, the tournaments are still fun even if I don't hit as many greens as I normally would.

    Comment


    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Exactly what I was thinking with other systems having more leeway. So protee or gsa users can adjust their spin settings to match what feels right or their real life game. But we can't do that with a gc2.

      I don't care much about winning the tournaments, as much as the playability and accuracy of the game. I would be happy if I could adjust my gsx spin settings to what feels right and still compete in tournament play. Even if I have to take a -36 handicap or something. I just want to be able to compare my scores with the others.

  • #4
    Interesting, I have a GSA system and if I have my spin at 100% it's about 10-15% greater than what I see when I hit on a GC2. So I have it dialed back to match the GC2 at golftown. I recently added a sensor mat which gives me club data. The other day, I hit at an outdoor range with 14 C temperatures. I found my shot shaping to be pretty equal to what I have set up at home. If anything..... I might still have too much spin applied to the calculations. Next week I have a Skytrak user coming over to hit some balls..... we should be able to run our sims side by side and measure the same shot. We will be posting results later. The GSA system almost has infinite adjustment for spin and distance calculations. If anything, I can use the ST to help dial in my settings. The 30-80 yard shots are the one that are always questionable. We should also be able to compare GSA with TGC to ST's driving range.

    I guess the real test would be to take the GC2 to the range with a laptop running TGC and compare ball flight.

    The goal of everyone who has a sim, is to have his real life game duplicated. Let's hear from more GC2 users.


    Comment


    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Let me know what side spin numbers you get with the skytrak. When I had the skytrak and range app, it was pretty accurate compared to real life shots. 700-800 side spin would give small fades or draws. 1200 would be a little more but nothing compared to the hooks and slices you get in TGC with those numbers.

      My guess is The culprit is either TGC or gsx interface with its interpretation of side spin from launch monitors (gc2 or skytrak). I think monitors that measure spin in a different way like protee or gsa may not have this issue

    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Let me know what side spin numbers you get with the skytrak. When I had the skytrak and range app, it was pretty accurate compared to real life shots. 700-800 side spin would give small fades or draws. 1200 would be a little more but nothing compared to the hooks and slices you get in TGC with those numbers.

      My guess is The culprit is either TGC or gsx interface with its interpretation of side spin from launch monitors (gc2 or skytrak). I think monitors that measure spin in a different way like protee or gsa may not have this issue

  • #5
    Originally posted by docsmilez View Post
    ....
    with the gc2 I can see my readouts. In TGC a 1000 side spin with 1-2 degree right will hook from right of green to left and off of the green. On the range In FR1 software those same numbers produce a nice realistic draw (actually starts right and ends maybe 5-10 feet left of target line). Really even a 300 left side spin will act more like a hook than a draw....

    Easy to test.

    Take the GC2's readout numbers and enter into Optimal Flight and compare the amount offline. Report results.

    In TGC you need to be on a flat range with markers where you can see how far offline the ball lands. No wind etc.

    Would be a worthwhile endeavor for anyone with concerns.

    Comment


    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Are you talking about the optimal flight calculator from flightscope ? I tried taking the gc2 numbers and entering them into the calculator but it asks for different variables. Could you share a link

  • #6
    Not quite, I'm talking about Optimal Flight which is the same idea but considered the gold standard for this kind of thing.

    The Flightscope Trajectory Optimizer is good too so best approach is to compare with both so you can see how much proven flight algorithms can reasonably vary.

    Comment


    • docsmilez
      docsmilez commented
      Editing a comment
      Looks like optimal flight is a paid program. I tried flight scope trajectory but it takes different parameters than gc2

  • #7
    Looks like optimal flight is a paid program. I tried flightscope trajectory calculator but uses different parameters than gc2

    Comment


    • #8
      TGC ball flight is run off of optimal flight. They should be similar. For optimal flight, you need to switch the GC2 to spin axis. Trugolf once told me that you need 500rpm to get the ball moving. I've struggled with a draw indoors vs outdoors. Heres the strange part. Indoors I get 500-600 draw sprin but When I take my gc2 outside I don't. I believe it's an alignment issue.
      My Courses:
      World Par 3's by mthunt
      Toronto GC (L) mthunt
      Burlington G&CC by mthunt
      Weston G&CC by mthunt
      London Hunt Club L mthunt
      Park CC Lidar mthunt
      Sunningdale GC Robinson L
      Sunningdale GC Thompson L
      Muirfield Village (liDAR) First Ever Lidar course
      Country Club of Castle Pines (liDAR)
      The Sanctuary GC ProTee L
      The National GC L mthunt
      Mississaugua GC L mthunt
      Shaughnessy G&CC L mthunt
      Markland Woods CC mthunt
      Hidden Lake Old L mthunt
      Magna GC L mthunt
      Barrie CC L mthunt
      mthunt Range

      Comment


      • docsmilez
        docsmilez commented
        Editing a comment
        I believe you are right, it likely has to do with alignment and hitting indoors. The problem is... the more accurate your launch monitor, the more these alignment-indoor issues will be apparent and penalized. Non spin measuring systems may mask these differences when playing indoor on a sim. This is just speculation.

        I plugged my shot numbers on to the flightscope trajectory optimizer, -1200rpm side spin with a 2 degree right horizontal angle showed a slight draw (ended maybe 5 yards left of center line). Those same numbers in TGC gave me maybe 20-30 yards left of center line. I'm starting to get really comfortable with these 20 yard chip shots

        Would be curious to take TGC/gc2 to the range and see how close these are.

      • mthunt
        mthunt commented
        Editing a comment
        1200 rpm with a driver will yield entirely different shape than a wedge. Which is yours? What club?

      • FaultyClubs
        FaultyClubs commented
        Editing a comment
        -1200 rpm sidespin with 2 degree spin axis is invalid input because you mixed up coordinate systems. It will produce rubbish for an answer.

    • #9
      Don't give up that easily!

      Optimal Flight is only $10. And there's a free 7 day trial if you can't afford $10.

      Flightscope TO uses spin axis/total spin instead of sidespin/backspin. Different way of expressing the same thing.

      I think you can change the gc2 to readout to match either one. Probably can on the Skytrak too. Or use Optimal Flight to convert since it does both. Or convert it yourself using trigonometry.

      Comment


      • #10
        I put my GSA numbers into optimal flight and the ball flight and carry is almost identical on a full 8 iron with a good fade.

        Comment


        • #11
          so after testing about 100 or so shots and playing with the alignment of the gc2 here is what I think is going on.

          When I hit a draw, I aim right of where my reticule is... and here is the issue ...
          most of the time I am coming up with a 0-2 degree left horizontal angle. So the ball is really starting out left and drawing from there.

          Sometimes I will get the 0-2 degree right angle and those end up being better draws. The sweet spot when I hit a draw is when I can actually get 4-6 degree right horizontal angle and 700-1000 left side spin. They will put me right on line.

          the problem really is the way it gc2 is aligned, most of the time when I hit a "straight shot into the net at the reticule" it is giving me 0-2 degrees left. I trying tilting the gc2 a little left. Now my straight at reticule shots were in the 0 range. Draws starting out right of my reticule started going 2-5 degrees right. Now with my regular "draw" shot I was getting shots closer to my center line.

          So it actually had nothing to do with side spin at all and more to do with the horizontal alignment of the gc2 in relation to where my aiming reticule is on TGC. There is a very VERY fine line where the reticule offset and GC2 offset yield perfect results.

          unfortunately I bring my gc2 inside every night so every time I play I have to get it back to perfect alignment. Which will be tough but at least I know what's going on.

          So as mthunt said... it's alignment. And it really is a matter of a single degree rotation in the gc2 makes the difference between a proper draw and landing 20 yards off the green.

          Comment


          • #12
            Originally posted by docsmilez View Post
            So as mthunt said... it's alignment. And it really is a matter of a single degree rotation in the gc2 makes the difference between a proper draw and landing 20 yards off the green.
            I was with you until this part. ..I don't think a single degree is that critical. Maybe a couple yards offline on the green is all. If you are 20+ yards offline with your approach shots then something else is going on.

            Also fwiw, mt was talking about extra draw spin. Gc2 horizontal alignment will have no effect on spin. Presumably he meant subtle body alignment issues affecting spin which is probably likely.

            Comment


            • docsmilez
              docsmilez commented
              Editing a comment
              its not technically the gc2s horizontal alignment itself that affects spin, it's the relationship between the gc2 and the reticule on your impact screen.

              Think about it this way, of you move your reticule all the way to the right side of your impact screen and don't move your gc2. Then try to hit a fade, your gonna slice it. Move the reticule all the way to the left and then try to hit a draw, your going to hook.

              You can have the same effect by moving the gc2. And for me a 1 degree rotation to the reticule that is only 10 feet away makes a big difference after 100+ yards.

            • goatbarn
              goatbarn commented
              Editing a comment
              Yeah that doesn't make sense to me. Spin axis is spin axis, whether you pull or push the ball relative to the gc2 is irrelevant.

              Now if you mean to say that you're offset but not hitting to an offset on the screen you'll have a tendency to pull or push it, I agree.

              But if I twist my gc2 10* open and hit a shot, the shot will move through the air and curve the same as if I were square to the gc2, it would just start 10* to the left.

          • #13
            I would make a little jig, so that your GC2 is at the same angle every time you put it down. Non spin measuring systems don't have this problem because our cameras are mounted and the mat is so bloody heavy.....it's not moving. GSA and ProTee measure club face and path to a fraction of a degree. With accurate club data, ball spin can be calculated quite accurately. The one thing that LM's have an advantage.... is the difference the ball makes. Club data systems will have the same spin calculations regardless of the ball. When I hit the GC2 at Golftown.... I usually bring 2 or 3 balls from home. I have mentioned to them that they would be well served to replace the practice balls occasionally.

            Comment


            • #14
              Yes, as I said it has nothing to do with the Spin. When you hit a draw, you compensate for the left spin by aiming right. If your alignment is off and your are starting your draw to left of center then that will give you problems (hook).

              My point is it's not easy to see where "center" is because it is an invisible line that you can't see.

              I am assuming that the line from my ball to the reticule on the screen is "center". And I am assuming that the "center" line is parallel to the gc2 alignment. If it's not, I will be hitting pushes or pulls in addition to what spin I put on the ball.

              I can either change my "center" line by moving the reticule on the screen to match the alignment of my gc2... or I can move the gc2 alignment to match my center line. Almost impossible in both cases since they are both invisible.

              also I do believe that you put different spin on the ball depending on where your target is on the screen. So that is another unknown variable in the spin problem. If I move my reticule or target to left or right without changing my shot position, I will surely be putting different amounts of spin on the ball due to my brain telling me where I need to get the ball.

              Comment


              • #15
                Goes the GC2 have any alignment mode feature? With the ST I can put it in alignment mode and then use a cross-line laser level to tell exactly where it is pointing with no degree of error. Maybe something like this would help?

                Comment


                • docsmilez
                  docsmilez commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Not that I know of. the GC2 has a calibration tool you can run that will calibrate to a level surface so that when you are on a surface that is not level it will auto adjust.

                  With the new GCQ you can use an alignment stick and it will adjust its aligment according to the alignment rod.

                  Nothing that allows you to set up alignment with the GC2.
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