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It freaking kills me playing TGC tournament and putting for birdie and end up quadruple bogeying holes. I know I'm not the best putter in the world, but it just seems like putting is all over the board. Knocking short puts off the green, or long puts going nowhere.... I almost threw my putter into the screen during my last round I was so pissed. It would actually make me feel better knowing that I just suck and that it isn't the Skytak.
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It seems Inorkuo and I were doing our GC2 tests at the same time! LOL
I made a track using a couple alignment rods (actually electricians fibreglass pull rods about 3mm diameter). Laid the track down on the mat and eyeballed it to be aligned (didn't fine tune). I then tried putting but couldn't control the speed well enough so switched to hitting the ball with an actual pool cue. The GC2 doesn't show 1mph putts so did 2, 3,4 and 5 mph putts.
I was aiming for about 10 samples per mph group but I recorded all hits once the test began so some groups ended up with more than others. I started trying for 2mph but should have started with 3mph so 2mph ended up with the most recorded shots.
Results are:
2 mph = 0.3, 0.5, 1.4, -0.6, -0.2, -0.2, 0.5, 0.0, -0.7, 0.6, -0.5, -0.9, -0.5, -0.3, -0.7
Mean = 0.1L
Sd = 0.63
3 mph = -2.4, -0.3, -0.5, -0.4, 0.0, -0.2, -0.5, 0.1, 0.2, -1.2, -1.7, -1.1, -1.1
Mean = 0.7L
Sd = 0.76
4 mph = 0.5, -0.3, -2.5, -0.9, -0.2, -0.4, -0.3, -0.8, -0.4, -0.8, -0.4, -1.7, -1.1, -0.9
Mean = 0.73L
Sd = 0.72
5 mph = -0.5, -1.1, -0.2, -0.6, -1.0, -1.0, -0.4, -1.4, -1.3, 0.1, 0.0, -1.0
Mean = 0.7L
Sd = 0.5
EDIT: Since I had my calculator up I entered inorkuo's data to get his mean/sd as follows:
2 mph (Mean = 0.65, Sd = 0.46)
3 mph (Mean = 0.24, Sd = 0.53)
4 mph (Mean = 0.22L, Sd = 0.86)
5 mph (Mean = 0.14L, Sd = 0.96)
Question for Inor: Do you have a picture of your test setup? Did you move your setup at all between runs? And how did you get exactly 10 samples in each group?
Last edited by FaultyClubs; 03-22-2017, 01:58 AM.-
I'll take a pic tomorrow. I did my test at work in my make shift hitting bay.
I got lucky to get 10 of each. Actually, I threw out one that went 6mph so i didn't get it right on the number but I got close. I was keeping a count as I went and tried to vary the speed. around half way through, I started getting better at feeling the speed and started trying to fill in. 5 was the hardest to get right so I tried for 5 and sometimes hit 4s. When I finished 5, I only needed a few more 4s so I hit a little softer and got mostly 4s and some 3s. When I got down to 2, just tapped it so that if it wasn't a 2, it just didn't read.
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Checked my putts earlier, they were as expected. Big time right bias. 0 - 3 every time with only 2 out of several at zero. You simply can't make a putt like that when you bring break and speed into play unless you get lucky. At least the gc2 guys miss in both directions bringing the lucky putt more into play. And they are closer to 2 degrees rather than 3 degrees which adds to the advantage.
So, you get what I've been saying all along, which is rolling it some angle left and trying to skew the numbers in your favor. I hope more ST users will use the 2 alignment rod method and conduct their own test. It really does work well.
For the record, I raised my ST accordingly. Much easier to do with the alignment rods.Last edited by DirtyGarry24; 03-22-2017, 12:09 PM. Reason: Didn't give due credit to gc2 or ST putting accuracy based on testing.Comment
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Picture of my test setup.
Hopefully some skytrak users will post their tests. After all, this thread is about skytrak putting woes. At least you now have some gc2 data to compare.Last edited by FaultyClubs; 03-22-2017, 02:26 AM.Comment
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Those are some pretty good looking tests. Based on that it seems that the GC2 is as advertised +/- 1 degree HA. I think that the ST users can most definitely benefit from having 0 HA because of the random 3 degree thing. I would hate to lose a round because of a random data sent to TGC that was 3 degrees off. I think that ProTee should do a trial and let people turn it on or off. I won't be using it, but I totally understand how some users need it. You want to duplicate your real life game.... and a random 3 degrees off center does not help. I can see most if not all ST users wanting this feature ASAP. And I also can see how some GC2 users will want to use it. Being that most putts will have some break to them and that the weight is way more important than direction, I can see this feature maybe saving a stroke or two per round. It will also reduce a players frustration level by a lot when they have a random 3 degree putt from 8 feet away. Since this has come to light, I have finally looked at my putting data. I think from now on, I will try to putt straight and aim in the game. This is not always the case when I am in a rush. Sometimes I will putt 2 -10 degrees HA because I am too lazy to walk to the keyboard.Last edited by keither5150; 03-22-2017, 11:59 AM.Comment
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Skyjacked twice last night in round 1. Does add to the frustration.Comment
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I have a crazy solution, how about sky trac fixes their putting. They can pick up the line of a ball going 150 plus mph but not a 3 mph putt?Comment
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Compiled my putt data from yesterday's test using the two alignment rods as a guide. Will do a second test with putting correction off.
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Those are relatively high ball speeds. 10-20ft putts depending what one considers a tournament stimp speed.
Missing a 15 ft putt never bothers me as much as missing a 4 ft putt. For the 15 footer I figure it was probably me but for the 4 footer I'd blame the system! Lol.
It would be interesting to see skytrak data for the 2,3,4 mph speeds to match short putts. Actually it would be most interesting to see skytrak data as per the gc2 tests that inorkuo and I did so we could directly compare and also get more meaningful statistics.
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I'm all for guys having the option to use 0 HA for putts, doesn't really bother me what other people do on the tour. My putting with the GC2 seems 98% dead on with putting except for those random short putts that give me 2-3 degrees off line, but its hard to tell with all the breaks on these greens. How the heck are so many guys shooting low scores and making great putts with skytrak if these numbers all over the place?Comment
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Keep in mind that my above test was done rolling the ball down my target line. It shows the right bias that I've been claiming all along. When I play golf for score I aim with the cursor to a point where I think a zero HA would make the putt. Then I have to roll my putt "some amount" left of my target line to try to manipulate the system to give me a zero HA. At times I'm able to do it quite well and make some putts. Other days it's awful.
In the end I hate having to roll my ball left of my target line because I think it's terrible for my real life putting stroke. -
Ya last night i was making all kinds of putts of varying lengths. I am aiming left of straight however to trick the Skytrak. But Gary is correct, some days its not so bad, then others its almost every putt is thrown off line, regardless of where I aim. I really don't like the idea of 0 HA, but leaving it where its at is worse. Skytrak not weighing in on this thread is very telling that these are going to remain our only options!
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keither5150 - Could we set up a thread to poll TGC players on their feelings about locking in putting HA to 0 or +/-1 degree? I guess it would have to be a rule change and I feel every system should have the opportunity if they so choose. Maybe the poll would be 0, +/-1, or leave as is. I feel this thread should be linked and hopefully it'll continue to grow with more testing.Comment
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FaultyClubs here are the pics of my test setup. nothing was moved after i started recording my 41 putts. i assume you're looking at my 2mph putts that shows more of a right bias than the other speeds. it looks funny to me too but the 2mph putts were randomly distributed within the 41 putts. they were putts number 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 35, 38, 39, 40, and 41.
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ProTee said early in this thread they could only do this patch for sky trac so it would not be an option for other hardware, like my ProTee which if you push or pull a putt a few degrees, it will always have it at 4 degrees minimum. It is absolutely impossible to make a putt when you're 4 degrees off. It's just a limitation of the hardware though. I didnt get it to work on my putting. I have already accepted I probably wont win on this tour unless I hit it to gimme distance a lot. I mainly just try to compete against my past. This just makes it so I take it a bit more seriously (but not much).
So, I ask again, why cant sky trac fix this. Gimmes are 6 feet so it seems over that is enough to determine line. They cant pick up azimuth on a 3mph putt but they can a 160 mph drive?Comment
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I point you to comment 15, sub 3 and 4. I am not just throwing this out there mr. Satterwhite. They said otherwise now and thats fine. Thanks for clarifying ProTee I guess I misunderstood, though looks pretty clear to me when asked about a GC2 and they said "Sky Trac only". -
No bud. They know about the thread though. They put it in on the software guys to deal with it. Posted on page 1. Certainly not looking to have a blow up here.
ProTee and I replied to your post at the same time so I didn't see theirs until after sending it through.
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Why do you think they can't set it for all? This could be done in the software regardless of hardware. Or they could only do it for ST if they wanted to.
No one can answer your question but skytrak. I would venture to say it's a hardware limitation.Comment
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no need to get upset. i don't have a horse in this race but i am still interested in seeing the raw skytrak putting numbers. DirtyGarry24 your numbers show that you hit the bumper 33% of the time. i wonder what the real numbers are that skytrak is reporting when tgc spits out 3's. for arguments sake, lets say skytrak actually measured 3's. on average you have a right bias of 2 degrees right. if this is consistent for your system, then what if protee gave skytrak users the ability to set a putting bias and then set a forgiveness factor for the tolerance like we have for gc2? again, i really don't care what happens with this; i just find it interesting. we should have a poll about who the biggest nerd is on here.Comment
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Yes inorkuo, I'm not going to be upset if it gets shot down either. I've said plenty that it feels cheap.
I just did my test with putt correction OFF. I haven't looked yet, but it's going to be terrible.
Go and look and compile if you wish, I'm off to play some IRL golf. 85 and bright out here!!!
For the record, my setup didn't change from yesterday to today. Alignment rods and Skytrak unmoved. -
If it is consistent the user should just align their system properly! Maybe I'm missing something but it is a basic requirement that we align our systems to our target line.on average you have a right bias of 2 degrees right. if this is consistent for your system, then what if protee gave skytrak users the ability to set a putting bias etc -
DirtyGarry24 i don't think it is cheap at all to try to compensate for the bias. i was just saying that a third of your putts were unknown readings because of the 3 degree bumper.
FaultyClubs i was making a hypothetical case assuming that the 3 degree offline putts were actual measurements but gary has stated that he is aligned correctly for full shots. with this alignment, his putts have a right bias. i saw something similar when i owned a sktyrak.
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I'm certainly not upset, just voicing my opinion. I get asked if I can verify something like I just throw out a statement from nowhere, I'm going to answer. I know there was no ill intent, just as there was none in my answer but I am the type that will speak up for myself.
Now, You guys paid good money for sky trak. you guys rave about the accuracy. It's time someone hold them accountable rather than have ProTee come up with another workaround to allow for their shortcomings. I think it's a reasonable question why they cannot measure az on a 3mph roll but can on a 150 mph shot. And I think it shouldnt just be dismissed. ProTee still makes fixes to their interface for their system that is about and of life. You cant tell me there is not an algorithm. I couldnt care less. I dont have one and never will.
On a side note, as an engineer, I know it's very possible to have a device that they can sell for less than 200 and still turn a pretty penny that would give you an absolute representation of your putts. People paid much more than that for the ProTee sensors back in the day but technology has come a long way. If people are willing to pay 6-7 k for an hmt, seems they wouldnt blink for a device they could TRULY work on their putting and give an accurate sim result.
Thats a LITTLE off the subject but not really.Comment
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Too bad that the TGC interface couldn't combine sim hardward. Add GSA or ProTee's sensor mat to the ST or GC2. Or add GSA's Hcam putting to any sim. -
Keither, I dont want to speak for ProTee but I would think if the numbers were available from an outside source they could integrate. More than one are used in ours since I know it can take camera USB feeds along with sensor serial to usb. I would be willing to bet SkyTrak and/or ProTee are working on a putting device as we speak since this is becoming a more lucrative market due to the affordability of devices nowadays. -
Bnorman58..... ProTee already has a Hcam.... correct? GSA and ProTee's systems are already so similar. Not sure what the legal agreement is between GSA and ProTee. Seeing that they are so similar, there must be a few loopholes. I can't imagine that my sim putting can be any more accurate. I can feel when I am off line 1/2 a degree...... 3 degrees would make me crazy.
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At first look, I had the same question -- how can they not accurately measure a slow moving ball if they can measure a driver hit?? A few thoughts came to mind - after checking out the Rapsodo patents, and playing with case designs.Originally posted by Bnorman58 View Post
Some ideas, in no particular order, and all pure conjecture:
-) Balls - when hit - must all travel through a sweet spot in the camera capture area. Putt balls may very well be at the lower limit of this area. Putt balls are also at the most extreme angle from horizontal and as such it's likely more difficult to determine if the ball is getting closer, or farther from the camera. (than it would be if the ball was directly in front of the camera)
-) Balls - when hit - stop interacting with anything other than air. Putt balls are jigglin' and wigglin along the surface. Although the average of the complete path may be straight, it's a different story when looking at a few flashes in time.
-) Balls - when putt - may leave the surface, backspin, land, skid, and then forward spin. Or may do any combination of the above. Trying to determine what's happening with the ball, using a system that is designed to do the same using very precise and small movements of logos and dimples, may be a challenge. The logo may vanish from one photo to the next when putting, where it likely moves thousandths of an inch when striking.
-) Maybe putting was not in the original design requirements - and they've done the best they can with the existing hardware platform.
-) A stopwatch is great for measuring how long a lap around a track takes, but not so good for measuring a trip around the world.
As I keep trying to explain to my kids as they learn about significant figures, garbage-in-garbage-out. If the SkyTrak just can't measure putts more precisely than +/- 3 degrees - we shouldn't want the data to be used in our sim programs. I vote to set it to zero and use the speed data only. I'm more than happy with speed and line. Takes forever when I have three friends over to play if we don't put liberal gimmies on. When we play match play, we take 12 foot putts on another mat to break ties on holes.
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