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  • Es16 and TGC

    Quick review on the ES16 and TGC? Club and ball data available on ES16 http://ernestsports.com/es16-tour.html
    TGC works great with ES16

    Quick summary of ES16 hardware for newbies:
    The unit has 4 dopplers and multiple cameras triggered by microphone and utilizing flash and Infrared to allow for high speed imaging. Yep, they are directly measuring a bunch of stuff. The Doppler will measure ball and club speed and aid in angle of attack and horizontal azimuth. The cameras will measure launch angle, spin, spin axis and horizontal azimuth as we as angle of attack. Smash factor will be determined obviously from this data. It's the best of both worlds. In fact they claim the horizontal azimuth will be more accurate than the traditional side mounted launch monitors because the Doppler will aid in its accuracy. Distance from the screen needed is only 6-8 feet. Data is calculated instantly so small delay.

    Club selection is not needed but suggested in the range software for club grouping and gapping and also to allow for better camera timing. Club selection has nothing to do with spin measurement.

    Now with TGC integration:

    It connects via Bluetooth through simple integration program. Connects instantly and flawless. Same bluetooth connection method with the ES16 range app. Once connected you need the appropriate liscence from TGC folks and off you go.

    Once connected through integration program and TGC then data is sent from ES16 to TGC. The time from shot to show is 1-2 seconds. The unit recognizes a logo on the golf ball for spin recognition. Ball is placed logo facing the unit in line with the back edge about 10 inches from the unit. Mthunt suggested this in the othe thread and it works 100% of the time. It takes about 2 seconds for the unit to recognize the ball. Now the area is small but from what I can tell you have around 2 inches in any durection from that spot. This FOV will be expanded in future update. Like most units yo need to be parallel to the target line. They recommend 10 feet from the screen but I have tested at 8, 7 an even as low as 6 feet with great results.

    I am getting about 95% shots recognized. Occasional a shot is not recognized but most shots are good. You need to select the club at this point. TGC has automatic club selection so no big deal. If 6 iron is suggested and you hit any iron the results are no different. Club selection really not an issue but it better helps camera timing. Game play with TGC is great and one plays from driver to putter. Short putts and chips work great. Really soft 2 foot putts may not register all the time but no biggie. Hooks, draws, fades and slices work well. Oh, as well, straight shots work too. Occasionally a registered shot looks off but overall it's very accurate.

    Club and ball data are both shown on the TGC analysis screen. Club data from ES16 is great and accurate. I have tested it with the ProTee sensor pad and the results are close. Getting club data is awesome. The only thing not shown on the TGC analysis at this point is Angle of Attack (AOA) but ProTee will be adding this in a future update.

    In summary this thing works great with TGC and the added accurate club data puts it at an advantage over units without club data. Is it more accurate than others? No but it's accuracy competes with the GC2.
    Things to discuss:
    1. Spin with logo - at the present time you need a logo to recognize spin which means bending down to place the ball. No biggie and I must say after playing a round I am already used to it. I suppose we get spoiled with the ProTee, ST or GC2. They will be coming out with a spin recognition from imperfections/dimples on the ball for those that don't want to bend down due to a bad back etc.

    2. Ball hitting area - around 12 inches from unit with a 2 inch radius. Doesn't feel too close to unit. Its not bad but could be bigger. Recognition time is <2 seconds for unit to shw a green light and be ready for hitting.

    3. Protective case - no case at this time but something will come

    4. Club selection - club selection needed so camera timing can occur. Selecting driver and hitting iron will work but more non reads can occur. Selecting 7 iron and hitting 5,6,8,9 etc irons are a complete non issue. A future update will completely eliminate need club selection as they will use the Doppler club speed to adjust camera timing for the ball. Remember club selection has nothing to do with ball data other than adjusting camera timing. In simulation round , it was an absolute nonissue and I completely ignore its selection other than selecting putter on the fringe.

    5. Shot to show - approximately 1-2 seconds.

    ES16 has great potential. It Works great with TGC. Nex week I will be testiing with E6 so will write up a review.

    Last edited by Bubba22; 11-13-2016, 02:17 AM.

  • #31
    I'm curious to know how it would be calculated. I'm thinking they would have to assume a center hit for starters (but maybe not), then possible determine face angle based on start direction of the ball (i.e. 85% for driver and 75% for irons, maybe), and determine path based on start direction vs spin axis possible. For example if face was 2 degrees closed and you had 0 spin axis then you would know path would be 2 degrees outside in, maybe something like that.. And if it is just being calculated why couldn't Foresight or Skytrack do the same thing??

    Also, I think I read somewhere that trackman also calculates face and path to certain degree as well??

    Comment


    • andygg1986
      andygg1986 commented
      Editing a comment
      If you hit the ball on the toe, it will start farther right and have more hook spin than a shot in the center of the club. A heel shot starts left with extra slice spin.

      As a simple example, you could swing with a square clubface and straight path but hit it off the toe. The result would be a draw. If you don't know that it was a toe hit or that the path was square, you can't say that the swing path wasn't inside out with a slightly open club face, which would also cause a draw. You could guess at how solid the shot was by looking at smash factor, but I don't think that would differentiate between a fat shot in the middle of the club or a toe shot.

      Another way of thinking about it is there are three inputs (club direction, face direction, impact location on the face) which will give two outputs (ball direction and spin). If you have any four, you can calculate the fifth parameter based on the equations that I referenced earlier. I think that it would be physically possible for the ES16 to know about where you hit the ball on the face by tracking the center of mass of the club and the ball with radar and seeing if they line up at impact. The cameras can measure ball direction and spin. Those four parameters would let you calculate face direction. I imagine the biggest error is going to be in impact location, which will limit face angle accuracy. I think Trackman also has issues with face angle on big mishits.

    • Baller
      Baller commented
      Editing a comment
      I totally get what you're saying, but a shot that has hook spin is going to hook no matter what the start path is. Ball start path will just dictate where it starts hooking from.

      In your example of straight path, straight clubface, but toe, yes, it would have a slight draw in most cases, but how much draw would be best indicated by the spin and spin axes s, which are measured, and not by the location hit on the club face. Not all drivers make the ball spin equally even if hit in the same spot. The GC2 doesn't measure the club at all, and is very accurate because that's what it reads so well.

      Either way though, I'm betting that they can make the figures better on the ES16 and hope they do. I'd love to have the face and path actually measured, perhaps the same way Trackman does. It seems as though the hardware is as capable as both the GC2 and Trackman. I'm just hoping they can make the software as capable to give accurate figures.

    • andygg1986
      andygg1986 commented
      Editing a comment
      All you really need for simulation is ball speed, direction and spin (which the GC2 and ST provide). The ball will travel the same regardless of how you hit it if those remain the same. I was thinking that the club data and ball data would serve different purposes. Ball data is for simulation purposes and club data is for working on your swing. If they can measure club data accurately enough, I guess they could use that data to improve the accuracy of ball data as well. Either way, it is nice to see that they are making improvements over time.

  • #32
    can someone tell me what's supposed to come in the box when you get an es16? others have mentioned a calibration tools but i didn't get anything like that.

    Comment


    • #33
      Calibration sheet and tee came in mine, but they may leave it out to avoid confusion as they probably aren't needed, but you should ask them. Other than that was USB and power adapter, I believe.

      Comment


      • #34
        Is there a 'fee' for using TGC on the es16? I already have a TGC license with my SkyTrak, so that part is taken care of, but I thought I remember hearing that there was a fee you had to pay ernst?

        Comment


        • Baller
          Baller commented
          Editing a comment
          You have to pay ES $200 to be able to use it for simulation. You probably already paid that. They ask you when you order it if you'll be using it that way and they add it to the price.

      • #35


        $200 ...is this a one time fee or annual? to ES for sim play

        Comment


        • Baller
          Baller commented
          Editing a comment
          One time to allow for any simulator use, and not for each software package. It's just simply to allow it to work on any and all simulators.

        • FaultyClubs
          FaultyClubs commented
          Editing a comment
          Are you sure, Baller? PG just announced official support for the ES16 at $350 per year. That is a $100 premium going to somebody each year. They made it sound that was Ernest Sports annual fee.

        • Baller
          Baller commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes, I'm sure the fee to ES is a one time fee, but that is not a fee for the software. That is a fee to ES to be able to sue other software. That $350/ year fee... is that to be able to use the PG software?

      • #36
        i guess my question would be .. if buy the ES16 and TGC ..,would i pay the one time fee at purchase and no annual fee after....i noticed on this site store(/golfsimulatorstore.com) there is a ES16 with TGC in a pkg ..if im in canada..not sure if it would affect repair/support issuses buying from a EU distributor...thnx for any help

        Comment


        • Baller
          Baller commented
          Editing a comment
          Never seen that store before. You can see it is run by Protee (now owners of TGC and also who run this board). That deal looks like it would be a $200 discount if there is no simulation fee.

          You should double check. You should also check with ES. Not sure if you want it, but not sure if you can get the protection plan from ES if you don't buy from them...but may be worth it. Honestly, I'd contact both and be sure of your options. They've both been great to work with.
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