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2K Announces The New PGA TOUR 2K21 (TGC2021) Game!!!

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  • 2K Announces The New PGA TOUR 2K21 (TGC2021) Game!!!

    Just announce with more info coming May 14th, no current sign of PC though

  • So, just for the benefit of this community, and hopefully i'll have a sim of my own by the end of the year (waiting in line for a mevo+), the chance for 2K's team to convert PGA 2k21 to golf simulator is close to nil. Let me explain;

    Right off the bat, I'll try not to go too in dept with this.

    What you have to understand in game design VS simulator design is the difference of approach. The segment of players you are approaching from one end to the other is not the same.

    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    Game design
    When designing a game for general population, you try to please as much as you can, I.E. you make it as rewarding as you can, while trying to look as challenging as realistic as possible. What this means is in the underlying algorithms of a game like PGA 2k21, you can bet your little seat cushion that there are factors of randomization that favor the players, mechanics that reward the player, and mechanics that make shots look like one in a million.

    The game has to be accessible to as much player as possible, I.E. you optimize it to make as compatible as possible with segments that are a significant part of the population;

    PC game players in 2020: 624 375 000
    Console players combined in 2020: 945 000 000

    Total gamers every platform consolidated (including mobile, tablet, etc...): 2 700 000 000

    Golfers; 24 000 000

    Decision to make a game
    A company like 2k is in the business of making money off of video games, making money is always a balance of how many people are willing to buy something, and at what price you are selling it. I could go on about the principle of elasticity and non elasticity in products but who really wants a course in economics. All that is important to know is you have a % of people interested at 100$, and less so at 1000$.

    People that buy games typically are not interested to pay a game the price of the console they are playing it on, so you can increase the price of a game, but you better have something to show for it. Right now, its hard to justify anything over 100$ / game, 5 years ago, anything over 70$ was high, and 5 years before that, no one in their right mind would charge over 50$ for a computer game.

    So going back to my first point, 2K designed a game to appeal to AS MUCH PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. Looking at the numbers above, are you going to focus on those 24M or on the 1,5B. So the game might look and feel like it has amazing physics (which I'm sure it does), and like it has great swing mechanics etc... (which I'm also sure it does). I'm not convinced it lives in the same realms of physics than a real golf ball, and thus porting to sim might be alot more complicated than you think.

    Even if it isn't maybe you wouldn't like it; see below.

    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

    Simulator design

    Typically when you design a simulator, your approach is different than a game. Your goal from the start is to get the most realistic possible outcome, with the least cost possible. The problems about designing simulator is always figuring out what is an acceptable margin an error between reality and your simulation. When it comes to golf there is so many ways to verify and validate a simulator versus reality, that you basically can't really let anything fly off. You won't include any rewarding mechanics, because if you do when players constantly shoot under par inside and shoot 10 HCPE outside, they'll call BS on your SIM.

    So right off the start you have an issue in comparison of a game to a simulator;

    Golfers; 24 000 000

    Golfers that own simulation devices; Maybe 1%; 240 000

    Decision to make a simluation
    Now if you are me, or an executive of a large company, right off the bat you lost my interest. Or at least, you will have to demonstrate that the effort to create this simulation is so minimal, that its basically free money, I don't have any significant risk that could damage my brand (Remember what I said about things being verifiable), and there is no investment required (marketing, packaging, etc...)

    So now you are stuck with a conundrum really. We already know that your market possibilities are extremely small, and you already know that this market will verify, validate, and potentially slander your product if you make it in a bad way, so really why bother? Well unfortunately, for most companies, it will stop there, especially large ones. Thankfully though, some smaller companies like ProTee, will gladly make this simulation for a few million $s, because we aren't all fortune 500 companies and we don't all have millions to our names, so hey count me in, i'll make a million dollars.

    A company like 2K will never make a simulation, because the risk is not worth the price, and because its simply bad business, simulation will always be a niche market, unless all of a sudden golf spikes interest in a significant segment of the population (golfers are in decline).

    All we can hope for is some one to be able to convince 2K to give access to their platform (PGA 2K21) and have them make a game off off the engine, but hey guess what, they'll do that for a few thousand $ for the game, not 100$.

    EDIT: Sorry I forgot to talk about elasticity here; most of the people that are willing to spend between 2K and 20K for simulation device, really aren't bound by the cost of the software to play on their device, they'll take whatever is the best. In the elasticity discussion below, this makes the demand really inelastic to the price, which is why E6 is charging so much, and everyone in their right mind would charge that much for this product.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

    In essence, the most likely scenarios is that there will be support for TGC 2019, but that there won't be a refresh for this platform. The only known company that has the most chance of success in the market is E6, because lets face it they charge a ton and its their core business, and they really only care about simulating the reality, not graphics etc... Their segment is really aimed at fitting, etc...

    I could get into more details in how I believe they patched the code between TGC and PGA to make it look like there is less bugs. But you can bet your ass that if you start outputing real metrics into their engine, it would give funky results, because I can guarantee they took a bunch of shortcuts.

    I know everyone here really hopes for a PGA 2k21 integration, and I wish I could bring good news. Maybe a smart guy can convince 2k21 to share the platform, but why would they do that really, unless you can give them a significant advantage (think $), which you can't, I don't see it happening.

    Maybe all I've said here will seem very very obvious for people here, but the feeling I got from reading your posts and hopeful porting of PGA 2k21 really made me want to explain this to you. Don't hate on the messenger, this is how most companies decision process work.

    Only the future can tell, but in 2025, I'll most likely be playing on either E6 connect (or its evolution) or TGC 2019.
    Last edited by Painpita; 09-14-2020, 08:21 PM.


    • Painpita - you seem to have it mostly figured out, which I find almost unbelievable from someone with '1' post on this forum. You must have done a lot of reading of these forum posts...

      Reviewing the 'attempted Poll' on the last page of this thread, I would choose 2.) pay $200-$300 every new version of TGC as it is upgraded, but as you point out, which I have also noticed, there seems to be a lot more going on with 2K21 in simulation of shots, and of replaying real professional golf shots. It is intriguing to think that 2K21 could be ported, but after reading your conclusion, I'm starting to come to the same conclusion, it likely will not be updated as it would be way too difficult at this stage of the TGC lineup.

      Where does this put us then as Sim golfers? As you suggest, likely it puts as going with E6 connect, or it's latest evolution, or continuing to play on TGC 2019, but there are a few other outliers which would be FX2025, or something similar - if it is converted to the Unity platform as suggested by someone up here.

      I think there is still one other alternative and that would be that ProTee would continue to update TGC 2019 to correct some of the playability issues, most notably, 'big first bounce', and maybe also more accurate 'bounces' (or the ball sticking immediately, or slowing down) in 'roughs'. If those are corrected, it could be possible there would be an updated TGC 2019 (call it 2023 Update), or something similar that would function (in all other respects), exactly like TGC2019, but that has some issues corrected specifically for Sim players to make it more accurate for 'in-real-life' play, much the same way that E6 is going (per your comments).

      So, there may be an alternate route here to having an updated TGC, maybe even called TGC 2023, which is a 'Sim only' updated version that ProTee releases. If that were the case, I would also gladly pay the $200-$300 for that update, knowing that it would correct play on the all of the courses instantly that are already available. (by the way, I also see your point about porting all the TGC2019 courses over and don't think that's realistic either).

      So, at this point, I guess we'll all have to just continue playing with what have for now, until ProTee United makes a statement on what their upgrade path will be, and how it will affect us.... and at this point, I think we're all quite happy with what TGC 2019 offers Sim Players, for it's price - it's very well respected in the industry, and having the enormous collection of courses available to us in TGC2019 is not something anyone would be willing to give up, (I don't think) to move to a 2K21.

      Thanks for the insight....


      • Originally posted by Brettster View Post
        Painpita - you seem to have it mostly figured out, which I find almost unbelievable from someone with '1' post on this forum. You must have done a lot of reading of these forum posts...
        Or, more likely, they're a regular, or someone with a vested interest, that just wanted to be anonymous.

        - Ron at - visit my site for instructional articles and reviews


        • I’m flattered guys, no don’t think I’m trying to bark down a tree of any kind. I have no vested interest. I actually am upper management of a high profile company with extensive finance and accounting background. I work in the decision process for large scale negotiations.

          Not on the gaming industry, haha.

          I just felt you guys could benefit from my point of view as I was seeing a lot of optimistic thoughts around porting pga 2k21, but I know how company thinks unfortunately for the fans of simulation.


          • Painpita Your speculation is useless, not founded on any supportable facts, only intuitions and your own “high level” qualifications. HA. I think u have a vested interest but with what, I don’t care. These death knoll posts from people without any credibility are so common it’s laughable. These same type of posts circulate all the time. See Protee TGC1 TO TGC19 speculation. Many here never thought 19 would be never be ported to Sim. Also see HB studio forum where many many with vast experience predicted 19 was end of the line for the The Golf Club franchise. Now we have 2k21. I personally believe it is very probable Protee will port 21 to Sim. Do u even own a golf simulator, if so what hardware/software do U have.
            Last edited by Fhacker; 09-15-2020, 06:49 PM. Reason: Ignore the last question, I see u are waiting on me on.


            • Painpita
              Painpita commented
              Editing a comment
              Well you are entitled to your opinion, but all my speculation was based on verifiable facts. Obviously there is some fair assumption in what I am advancing, but that is to be expected. Business decisions are never made with perfect information.

              I've haven't dealt in absolutes in my analysis, but simply put I don't believe there is a chance that 2K (or the PGA) becomes affiliated with any simulation market, thus a direct port of 2K21 is highly unlikely.

              As for a TGC19 refresh, it isn't impossible but I feel its unlikely in the short term as it is still considered leading the industry in alot of aspects, and there isn't a strong financial motivation to invest in a simulator refresh.

              As far as what simulator I owned, maybe if you bothered actually reading, and spending more than 5 seconds on my analysis (which is the minimum you can do when someone posts a thorough analysis), you would've realized right off the bat that I mention not owning a simulator yet.

              Other than that, I am sorry that my analysis doesn't confirm your bias, and its probably why you feel so insulted by it, learn to argue on facts rather than feeling.
              Last edited by Painpita; 09-16-2020, 12:19 AM.

          • I'm pretty sure HB Studios still designs (codes) the game and 2K simply licenses the name and some content and presentation. The guts of the game is still the same HB Studios TGC game. I don't see why HB Studios wouldn't be able to provide ProTee with the guts of the game while stripping out the PGA and 2K presentation. I'd actually bet that everything is modulized to make that a pretty simple process. The ball physics engine has been updated and all of that code can be provided to ProTee. It is likely that the reason we won't see a 2k21 (or whatever they would call it) on the sim is a Protee decision rather than an HB Studios or 2k decision.


            • Originally posted by ks-man View Post
              I'm pretty sure HB Studios still designs (codes) the game and 2K simply licenses the name and some content and presentation. The guts of the game is still the same HB Studios TGC game. I don't see why HB Studios wouldn't be able to provide ProTee with the guts of the game while stripping out the PGA and 2K presentation. I'd actually bet that everything is modulized to make that a pretty simple process. The ball physics engine has been updated and all of that code can be provided to ProTee. It is likely that the reason we won't see a 2k21 (or whatever they would call it) on the sim is a Protee decision rather than an HB Studios or 2k decision.
              Pretty much this. I think I read somewhere that HB just brought on 2k basically for their publishing capabilities and less so their name. HB still does all the work but now with a bigger brand pushing them and publishing the game. Integration is most likely all on the Protee side and probably whether it makes sense for them to invest the time for a sim integration vs the $$$ return.


              • Thanks ks-man. Obviously painpita has no grasp of the prior history of this game as he never mentioned the two prime players: HB Studios and Protee. 2K has only been involved for a short time and as far as we know are only marketing the console game. The lack of this knowledge should convince everyone he lacks credibilty. For all his high faluting credentials, he failed to do proper research to understand the true business relationship. Sure glad he is not advising Protee. if I were them I would ban him from this forum as he is spreading unfounded Rumors about the sim games demise, which may prevent sales of TGC19 as some may believe the game will be dead soon.


                • GrecoISU
                  GrecoISU commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Originally posted by Fhacker View Post
                  if I were them I would ban him from this forum
                  Big yikes. I'd hate to get into a political discussion with you. The man provided his opinion with analysis from his experiences in the business world. You disagree. Why doesn't it just end there?

              • I think my analysis might have confused you a bit. I absolutely do not claim that this can't be done, or that there might not be any interest to do so. I even mentioned that the engine can potentially be re-used to design such simulating games.

                What I was alluding to was simply the port of PGA 2k21. Now you bring a good point, 2K is only commercializing to console and PC (see my first post about aiming at the significant segment of the market). But let me explain how gaming studio usually make deals with companies such as 2K.

                __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

                First lets get this out of the way, we can all agree that 2K and PGA are significant brands, which will not have incentives for a port to simulator of the game (refer to my first post).

                Now i'll concede HB Studio could potentially use the upgrades they did to the engine in 2K21 to update their simulator TGC 2019 into a new version / remake.

                Typically though companies like 2K go through long term agreements with specific studios, not necessarily guaranteeing said studio will stay for the franchise, but to buy intellectual property for the games that is being published by 2K. Companies do this not to stop the evil simulators from happening, but to nip in the bud any chance another publisher could come in and ask to create a game to compete against PGA 2k21. Not impossible that HB Studio had a specific clause about simulation, but typically the financial arrangements with 2K will devoid HB studio of any motivations to working on sims.

                Thus making a direct port very unlikely.

                One would have to know what concessions HB studio made on the intellectual property to 2K to guarantee that no other franchise could come and compete with 2K, to know the likelihood of HB studio to create a new TGC 2019, which are all confidential information. One thing is for sure, the financial motivation to do something like that is not very high (see first post again)
                __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

                Now that being said, Fhacker as far as personally attacking my credibility, I have not identified myself. It is safe to say I have absolutely no credibility other than what I have said my knowledge of lack thereof in various subjects is vast. It would be safe to assume that I don't know more than what I have advanced in my posts.As far as banning me for slandering TGC 2019, that is simply laughable.

                I'd like to end saying everything I am saying is speculation, you can chose to believe what ever makes you feel happy. It won't make it more likely though.
                Last edited by Painpita; 09-17-2020, 04:29 AM.


                • Uk101jkt
                  Uk101jkt commented
                  Editing a comment
                  There was something in your comments that just didn't read well. Your tone just didn't sit well with me either and judging by the attacking responses (which is not normal in this forum) It seems that others felt the same. The bit about your job role was particularly wrong - I suspect that most of the posters here are senior executives and quite a few will be company owners or they wouldn't be able to afford this expensive hobby. You tried to post in a manner that presumed you knew more than other equally successful people who have been involved in this hobby for a long time, on your very first post.

                  No need to be banned, but maybe try to phrase your posts slightly differently. Starting off with "for the benefit of this community" certainly didn't help.

                • Painpita
                  Painpita commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Never meant to brush egos the wrong way.

                  The only thing you should take from my post is I believe 2K21 won't be ported to sim.

                  Any other inference from my post is most likely miscommunication.

              • I don't think 2K21 should be ported over to simulators. It is not a significant jump in graphics and while physics are better, I am more than happy with TGC19.

                I hope 2K21 video game version performs well and helps drive improvement for the next version of the game (2K23?) and then that version is ported over to simulators.


                • Knickerbocker - I disagree, 2K21 is quite a good jump, especially in ball physics regarding bounces on rough, or on the green.

                  So when you say:
                  I hope 2K21 video game version performs well and helps drive improvement for the next version of the game (2K23?) and then that version is ported over to simulators.
                  That's just splitting hairs, the question to be addressed here would have to be answered by ProTee themselves... One thing I find startling, is that with all this talk about updating TGC2019 - we have never seen an update path, or a 'bug correction' or 'error reporting' timeline on what they are working on next, and what the developer priorities are in that regard as the software would move forward. So, until that question is answered, there's no point in even thinking about how 2K21 would drive an new version 2K23, and that version would be ported over.

                  (sorry, but I'm saying this as a software developer myself with nearly a lifetime of experience, and one that is still not understanding what the upgrade path is for TGC2019, from the company that made the original port, ProTee, as they will be the only company that could answer that question).


                  • Painpita
                    Painpita commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I agree with you.

                    I think the silence is pretty telling