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Good putters - what’s the trick?

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  • Good putters - what’s the trick?

    So we all know putting is tough in Sim World.... well, most of us.

    how are people shooting so low on the tours? People are shooting low-mid 60s every round.

    How are you guys making so many birdie putts? I find it so hard (yes, I have straight putting patch) to gauge speed and break.

    I can count on one hand how many times I’ve gotten a putt to gimme range from 25+ feet. Usually they all end up long. Then I when I try to take little off they only go 18-20’ leaving me out of gimmie range.

    is there a secret? Does Skytrak suck at gauging speed of putts too? I just can’t seem to get putts to drop in the sim.

    Are you all actually great putters in real life? Or am I just a terrible putter?
    -KillaCale8

  • #46
    IMO you all are to conscious and need to be unconscious.
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    • Solstice72
      Solstice72 commented
      Editing a comment
      Do you forward press with a high lofted putter like Stockton likes?

    • Wizard of Coz
      Wizard of Coz commented
      Editing a comment
      I forward press yes.

    • Brettster
      Brettster commented
      Editing a comment
      Sounds a bit like a Nicklaus thing, Jack did that with his other clubs, not sure if he did with his putter though... and that sounds like it could be 'all feel' Wiz - and also it sounds VERY CONSCIOUS not UNCONSCIOUS as you say... I've been studying / playing golf for almost 50 years... I've tried/applied many techniques, some work, some only work for some people.

      What's your issue with having a Display Visual Cues option if it can be turned OFF for people like you that want to keep on playing Video Game golf in their simulator, instead of Simulating Real Golf?

  • #47
    Here is my whole point and my point of view, take the real life shot you line your shot up in a fixed world and see your body as the only thing that moves, I line my shot up and see everything as square to my orientation. Same shot, same stance, same line, just a different point of view it is all in how you look at it. If you want your body to be the variable go for it, I will adjust my point of view to match what I think it should be. In my simulator every shot is in a South West direction, I know I am in a simulator and it doesn't matter to me that in the real world I should be facing North, South, East, or West I am in a simulator and it is just a point of view same as with the alignment of the shot.

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    • Solstice72
      Solstice72 commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm hearing ya. See my comment to you above. I'm going evaluate both styles freshly. I'm thinking already they both have their irl translation strengths.

    • Brettster
      Brettster commented
      Editing a comment
      Mr. Curtis, thanks for that link to 'real Virtual Golf', but I'm not interested in that either...

      All of this comes down to one point: I am proposing an option that will help others work on 'FEEL' in their Simulator Short Game, what is your issue with that if it can be turned OFF for people like you that want to keep on playing Video Game golf in their simulator, instead of Simulating Real Golf?

  • #48
    WTAF

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    • #49
      Solstice72 thank you for supporting me, and for truly understanding what I am saying. All the others BGCurtis2nd Wizard of Coz mikemcd22 and others, it all comes down to this:

      What I am proposing is a Display Visual Cues option for short game shots in simulator software, notice I say 'option', it would be an 'option' that you could turn Off/On for each player, so those of you that don't want to use it - Turn it OFF and keep on doing what you're doing which to me is Playing Video Game golf in your simulator instead of Simulating Real Golf in your simulator.

      That is the real thing at question here, I believe, otherwise it would not draw so many people discussing it, and trying to claim their way is right - really there are only 2 ways - but there are many different methods that could get you to the 2nd way. 1.) You are trying to improve your Video Game golf techniques inside of your simulator so that you can score better and you don't care about how that translates into your real golf game, or 2.) you are trying to simulate Real Golf in your Simulator as best you can and you look for any chance you can to improve the simulation as long as it does not 'get in the way' of using your simulator.

      Maybe we need a whole separate post, or Forum even (whaddya think ProTee) on how to make Simulator Golf more 'real' to 'real life golf' and easier to transfer what we are learning in our simulators so we can apply it to our real golf game?

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      • Jwheels9876
        Jwheels9876 commented
        Editing a comment
        Do you bring real dirt and grass into your simulator area? A hoke dug out with sand in it also? Couple of side hill lies to hit from as well ?

        Sim golf is not real golf, it's a fun way to practice over the winter or whenever you can't play outdoors. It keeps your swing sharp and that's something you can take outdoors with you.

      • Iquinn4
        Iquinn4 commented
        Editing a comment
        You mean making it closer to real golf like adding boost to improve your carry or changing your backspin or sidespin to make it go straighter and farther? 😉

      • Brettster
        Brettster commented
        Editing a comment
        Jwheels9876 yes, I would like to have a side-hill lie platform and I've seen them that move hydraulically to match your lie, that is one place where Sim golf is really lacking, it hurts your 'real' game to hit 100% of your shots from a perfect/balanced lie every single time in the simulator. I have a patch of tall grass right outside the door, of my shed, I'm not done with my sim build yet, but have thought about the sim area inside... you can only go so far, and it does provide a fairly good simulation, but the perfect lie shots every time are annoying and most certainly are resulting in lower scores in Sim Golf - that clearly shows.

        Iquinn4 - no, that' not making it closer to real golf, as you just said, it's making the ball go farther and straighter by changing the data on your shot every time. That is the opposite of what I am talking about.

    • #50
      Brettster Now you state "What I am proposing is a Display Visual Cues option for short game shots in simulator software, notice I say 'option', it would be an 'option' that you could turn Off/On for each player, so those of you that don't want to use it - Turn it OFF and keep on doing what you're doing which to me is Playing Video Game golf in your simulator instead of Simulating Real Golf in your simulator."
      Do you have greens turned on or off (see picture)? Because if you look at the movement on the green from what I understand it tells you how water would flow on the green giving you both a speed and direction. Now if that is not a Visual Cue I would like to know just what is? To me it is easy enough to look at that information pick the line I would need to make the putt and line up the camera to that line, now in real life yes I would have to turn my body to do so and in the simulator I merely line up the view to simulate that turning of the body in the real world situation, for some reason you don't seem to be able to see that. I take that information to the course with me, now I may not have the movement on the green to figure my shot but I can look at the lay of the land and calculate the point of aim needed due to how the ball will react with the slope of the ground because of the real world 3D view of the ground that I do not have in the simulator which without some sort of 3D glasses you are not going to get. I am sorry if you are unable to see how that is done but the fact is I and Wizard of Coz and many others are able to do that, we are not playing "Video Game Golf" we are playing Simulated Golf and transferring the information for real world to simulator and back very easily. I use the very same putt in the simulator as I do in the real world for the same shot no matter what the distance.

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      • Brettster
        Brettster commented
        Editing a comment
        HansShotFirst - yes, I know the golfer does not see that! I'm not an idiot Of course that would be more of an advantage as a visual cue in a simulator than using Golf Balls, that's what I just indicated in another post on this thread in reply to Mike. You must think I'm a real nutter

      • Wizard of Coz
        Wizard of Coz commented
        Editing a comment
        C'mon over to discord brettster. Once people learn the short game in sim then we generally have a hdcp outdoors around 8 points higher than sim. Feel in putting is distance control. If you can't control distance you can't pick the correct line. What is your outdoor hdcp? I practice 6ft putts outdoors all summer long. It doesn't matter how many years ive done it. If i don't stay on it i won't stay sharp. 6ft gimmies are big in sim land

        Im not following you at all. Maybe it's just me.
        Last edited by Wizard of Coz; 01-09-2020, 05:14 AM.

      • Brettster
        Brettster commented
        Editing a comment
        Wizard of Coz - thanks Wiz, I will try to join you on discord as soon as I finish building out my sim! My outdoor handicap is 6.

        I'm in the final stretch, I think but still have to build up a wall in my shed that has a garage door in it (remove that), put down flooring over a poured cement , cut out the ceiling joists to gain a 10' ceiling height, and finish the walls... oh, and buy the impact screen and turf, and hitting mat to match my ProTee sensor It's going to take a while... I appreciate the invite and would love to play against everyone soon, on discord and everywhere... I don't see value in 6' gimmies though... if we are trying to improve why not make 1' or 2' gimmies instead and let us putt the short ones? When I played match play I would always putt out, even if the hole is already lost/won. I would think hitting those short putts on the Sim would help you IRL?

    • #51
      This thread is strange. There are visual cues with the grid already as stated above. You then move the screen to your intended line and putt on that line. Same exact thing is done in real golf. That's it. If you want to turn your body, turn off straight putt patch and do it. There is nothing the game needs to add. And either way works just as good for real golf.

      Now, I think the issue some people have for not liking sim putting is in their setup. Being 10+ feet from the screen and having the camera set up to see your ball is visually difficult to grasp and get a feel for it. I actually did a lot of testing and found if I put my setup/ball 6'2" from the screen and set the camera to NOT see the ball, it very closely mimics the actual putt coming from my ball and then onto the screen. So much so that where my ball hits the screen, the simulated ball leaves from that same point. It feels so seamless and real. Maybe try that if you are struggling with putting.



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      • Brettster
        Brettster commented
        Editing a comment
        emveel - just because you feel there is nothing the game needs to add, does not mean that others would not like to see it added. Do you think your ideas are the only ones that need to be accounted for in the entire world of Simulator golf? I like what you've done in that when your ball meets the screen it enters the simulated screen at that point, that's exactly what would be required along with the 'Display Visual Cues' option added to the game to make it easier to learn 'feel in the short game'.

      • emveel
        emveel commented
        Editing a comment
        Sorry Brettster I'm not trying to say others can't want things. It's just that what you are describing is already in there with the grids. Instead of balls they are white lines that move like a ball would to give you a feel for the break. You then adjust your line accordingly. If they are moving faster, more break. I've played on OptiShot which shows balls, it's no different and TGC is actually better because the balls were all over the place and confusing on OS.

    • #52
      I don't understand why many of you guys are negative towards Brettster for looking to iterate on simulation.

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      • Solstice72
        Solstice72 commented
        Editing a comment
        No one said you wouldn't improve by green spinning. Hitting straight into a cup 10 feet away still has value mostly for grooving stroke, and real life feedback (it goes in or doesn't ) It lacks the stress of moving the body for different putts and still be able to execute that ideal stroke. Furthermore body aligning involves some basic mentalizing of hitting into the break and using the mind's eye trying to square the stroke on that visualized line. A more disorienting feat which mirrors irl challenges.

      • Brettster
        Brettster commented
        Editing a comment
        Well said Solstice72: Hitting straight into a cup 10 feet away still has value mostly for grooving stroke, and real life feedback (it goes in or doesn't

        When I finally get my Sim built I would like to play a sim round with you, we can both use alignment, or one can use green-spinning... Funny, but I bet if we tracked stats using both, and the difference it made with an IRL round (within 24 hours of playing in simulator) we would see a high correlation to improved feel using one method over the other, and probably improved straight line putting as well.... If others would try that, we would have no more arguing going on about which Sim putting style to use... though I still believe most people up here who use Green Spinning do so because it improves their Sim scores and helps them win on Sim Tour or at Sim Events.

        Bottom-line: that's not anything I want to do, I want to use techniques in the Sim that most closely resemble IRL, thereby helping me improve my feel, and allowing me to play Sim golf that feels more like IRL than just hitting balls into a screen... I realize my goals in this regard are more about improvement and closest resemblance to IRL. Your thoughts on this?

      • Solstice72
        Solstice72 commented
        Editing a comment
        Well Brettster I definitely want irl translation to be the best possible and the prime mover for a sim. And I think everyone here does too. I'm sure you've seen the disgruntle over a bad spin representation or the high bounce problem with TGC2019. Everyone wants it realistic. That is until things get competitive they may want the easier your route. I was little naive thinking there wouldn't be much cheating but apparently you need a commissioner to full-time monitor cheating. And that might be why green spinning keeps it's allure. However it may not be easier I don't want to be definitive I haven't spent enough time doing it. I think people start off a certain way putting and don't know any better that's how I started putting the way I do. It's a healthy debate on whether to challenge yourself and give up a style. I've actually considered green spinning just part time to practice the stroke in that controlled condition. When you get your sim, let's hit it up together man

    • #53
      Brettster You state "
      yes, that's right, I want golf balls set out in front of me in a line - a straight line at first, and then on the break line, so I can visualize what going on with the break by seeing the golf balls as a reference, see Gene's excellent video that I reference. Those golf balls would be one side, or the other away from the actual break line and not exactly on the break line. Think about the way it is on PGA coverage where they show you a high-side break that your ball would follow if you hit it softly, and a low-side break that your ball may follow if you hit it harder, and then a shaded in area which is all a good line, have you seen that? That makes it so easy to gauge putting and to see if the player is going to make the putt all along the putting line. So, something like that would also work, but I feel that may provide too much of an advantage for the 'video game golfers' that already putt on just a straight line every single time. I also want the ability to putt at an angle from the starting point of my ball to the screen, and have that line of my putt show up properly on the screen so I can putt along the line of the putt, instead of lining it up with mouse clicks and putting a straight putt every time - make sense?

      The intervals I want to be determined, can be different for each user, for example, I might learn feel and measure my putting stroke in 2' intervals, while you might use 3' intervals, and someone else 4', or 1' intervals. That is why I indicated that there would be fields where 8 to 10 intervals would appear. So, you also might want 2' intervals up to 12', and then 3' intervals after that, or whatever suits you in the way that you learn to determine the length of putting stroke required for that putt. As the putt gets farther away, it's harder to visualize distance, because of depth of field/perception and the fact that you are looking at a screen."
      The only way you are going to be able to hit a ball and have it match what is on the screen is to have your floor match the green. The ball moves due to the slope of the green, you pick your line due to that slope hitting a ball on a curve is no way to make a putt ask any PGA pro you like and they will tell you that on a flat surface a putt should go straight.

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      • #54
        Wow this thread is entertaining!! I read the same thing over and over, yet it made me laugh out loud.

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        • #55
          Wow there are a lot of sim golf putting nerds in this thread!

          Its very interesting reading all the discussion around visual cues, distance from the screen, where the ball is etc. I use the screen and aiming functions of the software to lineup the starting direction then maybe measure some distances to cover or breaks around the hole much like i would use my GPS or laser (yes i have both but I very fast with them haha).

          After all of that I put my head down, visualize what swing or putting stroke I need for that distance and let'r rip. Keep in mind I am 10.8 (real life, outdoor multi-course index) that putts using a modified version of the claw with a forward press. Not that any of that really matters but my index may make my comments hold less weight, especially if we were on reddit.

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