Skytrak REALLY Short game (3 to 10 yards) - Possible addition to the config file?

[EG$]

There is a known hardware limitation for shots that fall into the 3 to 10 yard range with this hardware. I know that the short game correction exists in the config file as a on/off option. My question is whether its possible to extend this further? Apologies if this has been discussed in another thread at another time and a definitive conclusion was made, but I wasn't able to find it.

Short chips are a significant part of the real game, and its a shame its not currently a part of this game (using Skytrak).

The short game correction option seems to fall at opposite ends of the spectrum:

Off: Low speed shots ARE read, but spin IS NOT, HLA correction IS NOT applied, so you end up with a 3 yard carry and 20 yard roll out (exaggerated example) and whatever HLA the Skytrak determines.

On: Low speed shots are NOT read, but spin IS, HLA correction is applied, so you have to hit the shot hard enough to read. The problem is that 'hard enough to read' means 7 yards carry with a VLA in the high 30's (thats the lowest I've been able to achieve) with about a 3 yard rollout.

The 3 to 10 yard area is the problem. I do think the 'On' setting is the better of the 2 options, however, I cannot get a VLA over 38 degrees to register off of my FB mat. I have been able to get it to read around 40 off of a low tee, but I'd say that only 1 in 5 of these shots will actually register.

What distance constitutes when the short game correction option is applied? If this is set to a predetermined distance (or ball speed reading) is it possible to:
1. Use the existing HLA correction, and
2. Force the game to reference a table that follows a fixed back spin RPM based on ball speed and vertical launch angle

A table like this would be easy to create and would solve the <10 yard problem.

If the hardware is capable of reading extremely low ball speed, something like this should be possible, correct?

[EG$]

So first thing is first. I actually had the short game correction 'Off'. I turned it on and I was able to get ball speeds of 7MPH to read. 1 yard carry, 3 yard roll out from the light rough in the short game practice area. Flops read as well. 4 yard total should cover the majority of the shortest situations in the game. It does look like all of the back spin numbers are low, so you also have to try and control the distance with the descent angle.

Absolutely playable with that feature enabled, but it does seem like it now has a little trouble picking up chips in the 15 yard range.

Bubba22 You were right! However, now I'm really confused about Indygolfer 's setup.

Now if someone could help me figure out how to accurately read the break severity on the greens I might be able to put up a fight on the tour...

[Bubba22]

Glad it’s working for you. As far as reading green breaks, I use complex mathematical equations that I formulate from notes derived using Bryson Dechambeau’s methodology! Just kidding, lol. I am sure some folks have a method depending on cross speed and number of blocks, factoring in the uphill, level or downhill slop. I just guesse my breakpoint and hit away, estimating my distance needed.

[Indygolfer]

I’ll check everything in the settings and other questions about club head speed tomorrow. I’m almost certain that I don’t have straight putting turned on as our putts do push and pull offline from the start many times. The group I play with doesn’t love putting, but we are getting better every week. This morning we made approximately 7 putts between 7-20 feet and 2-3 putts over 20 ft. Our handicaps range from 1 - 4. We’ve decided that if you treat it more like a video game versus trying to take it more seriously, then you have a lot more fun.

[Indygolfer]

So, it looks like short chip correction is definitely turned on, and putting straight is turned off. I don’t think that I ever changed the default settings, but could be wrong.

[EG$]

No worries Indygolfer . Its definitely playable with the correction on, but there is room for improvement. I've hit many high spin flop shots IRL that stop almost exactly where they land depending on the slope, but I don't think that's possible with the correction enabled in the game.

I would like to get a better understanding of when the correction kicks in. Is it shots of a certain length or speed? Is it also enabled in the green-side bunkers? I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess it seems like it revolves around ball speed.

Bubba22 If you know, can you shed some light on where and when the correction is applied? Is there any chance the correction be expanded or improved?

[Fantastish]

I believe it kicks in for any shot under 20 yards EG$ .

[EG$]

I believe it kicks in for any shot under 20 yards EG$ .

Yikes! That's going to make some of the green-side bunker shots really tough. I'm going to have to try my best to get the elusive 50 degree launch angle!

What is the highest launch angle the Skytrak will read? Does anyone know?

[GungHoGolf]

Not sure, but move the ball a few inches further away from the unit to give the cameras a taller field of view.

[EG$]

GungHoGolf - Moving the ball further away didn't seem to affect much. I've seen 45* VLA readings but I'd say that that's an outlier as far as consistency. Anything around 40* seems to be the threshold for consistency.

mthunt Bubba22 ProTee United - Can you clarify how the short chip correction is applied? Is it ball speed? Is it distance to pin? The reason I ask is because the short chip correction is making green side bunker play extremely difficult. I can deal with the rollout from the rough, but it doesn't make much sense coming out of the green side bunkers when the 40% penalty is applied.

This is my problem situation, and it seems to come up frequently when greens are missed. I'm 16 yards from the pin and 10 feet below the hole. The math I'd do for this is: 16 yards + 3 yards for the uphill = 19 total yards. If I want to carry 19 yards, I'd need to hit a shot that would carry approximately 30 yards without the penalty.

This works without any issue if the short chip correction is disabled. The majority of green side bunker shots bounce once and stop but I have yet to be able to do this with the short chip correction applied.

If I try to play the rollout this becomes an extremely tricky land it on a dime situation. It seems like the carry/rollout ratio falls somewhere between 2:1 and 1:1 when the short chip correction is applied. In reality, the carry/rollout ratio for this type of shot and green side bunkers in general is probably closer to 10:1. In the situation above I have to try and carry this shot approximately 8 yards, which means I have to hit a shot that would carry approximately 15 yards without the penalty. Shouldn't be a problem right? I can't tell you how many times this shot doesn't clear the bunker when I know I've struck it exactly how I want to. If you need video evidence of this, I will be more than happy to produce it.

I'm not asking for solution that puts me within gimme range every time I end up in a green side bunker. I'm asking for some predictability coming out of a green side bunker.

The easiest solution I can think of is to disable the short chip correction in the bunkers.

The whole short game implementation needs to be revamped IMO. The short chip correction is a band aid that provides no middle ground to both extremes.

I'm more than willing to help come up with a solution, but I can't do that without knowing what can and cannot be done. I'm also more than willing to test any proposed solution.

[Fantastish]

EG$, I think your suggestion is an excellent one. I know my biggest problem with skytrak is in a deep bunker next to the green. I know the ball will have no spin so I have to bounce it just to roll on the green. It would be cool is short chip correction could be disabled if in a bunker around the green.

[EG$]

I totally agree Fantastish. I'd love the see the syntax in the code that enables the short chip correction at 20 yards. I'd bet an exception for a bunker lie could be applied.

[mthunt]

GungHoGolf - Moving the ball further away didn't seem to affect much. I've seen 45* VLA readings but I'd say that that's an outlier as far as consistency. Anything around 40* seems to be the threshold for consistency.

mthunt Bubba22 ProTee United - Can you clarify how the short chip correction is applied? Is it ball speed? Is it distance to pin? The reason I ask is because the short chip correction is making green side bunker play extremely difficult. I can deal with the rollout from the rough, but it doesn't make much sense coming out of the green side bunkers when the 40% penalty is applied.

This is my problem situation, and it seems to come up frequently when greens are missed. I'm 16 yards from the pin and 10 feet below the hole. The math I'd do for this is: 16 yards + 3 yards for the uphill = 19 total yards. If I want to carry 19 yards, I'd need to hit a shot that would carry approximately 30 yards without the penalty.

This works without any issue if the short chip correction is disabled. The majority of green side bunker shots bounce once and stop but I have yet to be able to do this with the short chip correction applied.

If I try to play the rollout this becomes an extremely tricky land it on a dime situation. It seems like the carry/rollout ratio falls somewhere between 2:1 and 1:1 when the short chip correction is applied. In reality, the carry/rollout ratio for this type of shot and green side bunkers in general is probably closer to 10:1. In the situation above I have to try and carry this shot approximately 8 yards, which means I have to hit a shot that would carry approximately 15 yards without the penalty. Shouldn't be a problem right? I can't tell you how many times this shot doesn't clear the bunker when I know I've struck it exactly how I want to. If you need video evidence of this, I will be more than happy to produce it.

I'm not asking for solution that puts me within gimme range every time I end up in a green side bunker. I'm asking for some predictability coming out of a green side bunker.

The easiest solution I can think of is to disable the short chip correction in the bunkers.

The whole short game implementation needs to be revamped IMO. The short chip correction is a band aid that provides no middle ground to both extremes.

I'm more than willing to help come up with a solution, but I can't do that without knowing what can and cannot be done. I'm also more than willing to test any proposed solution.

This is what ProTee said about it:

"The line Short Chip Correction=ON will switch SkyTrak into a mode able to detect short chips. Its a hardware thing. TGC will launch any shot when the data sent by the hardware is valid."

And in another post:

"This is not a bug, it's a feature! SkyTrak has "trouble" reading short ships, so anything within 20 yards to the flag will switch the SkyTrak into putting mode.
However, it should switch back to normal mode outside this range eg. on the tee. Switching clubs outside the 20 yard range should also switch the unit back into normal mode.

You can turn this feature off in the settings file: Short Chip Correction=OFF."

You can search for short chip correction. It's been discussed a lot.

[EG$]

Ok so its 20 yards. Good to know.

Can you ask them whether the short chip correction can be enabled with an exception for anything that ends up in a bunker? The 40% penalty forces you to hit shots harder than you would out of the light and heavy rough, so the Skytrak should be able to read these shots without any problem. Actually, the Skytrak CAN read these shots without any problem.

If not, perhaps the 20 yards needs to be reduced to 15...

[mthunt]

Short chip is under 20 yards regardless of lie.

[EG$]

Switching clubs outside the 20 yard range should also switch the unit back into normal mode.

mthunt This is a little confusing. Can you explain this further?

The way I'm reading this is, its possible to get into the short chip correction mode OUTSIDE of the 20 yard range, and its also possible to exit the short chip correction mode inside 20 yards?

Or is this saying, the game defaults into short chip correction mode for distance to pin shots of 20 yards or less, but if you change clubs and switch it to a full shot, that will change it back into normal mode even though you're still inside 20 yards?

[mthunt]

I’m not an expert but if the Skytrak is in putt mode switching club will exit that outside 20

[EG$]

mthunt Sorry for singling you out on this. I did search the topic, and you're right, this thread basically rehashed all of the previously identified issues. My bad. The last comment in that thread is over a year old though.

IF its possible to exit the short chip correction mode with a club and shot type change, that's the first I've heard of it and would be an excellent workaround.

I'm not going to be able to fire up my sim for a few days, but if anyone has time, can someone test this and see if it works? Otherwise, I'll test this when I get the opportunity.

Hit one into a green side bunker that will give you a distance to pin shot less than 20 yards. You'll probably want to set the auto-rewind if you do this on an actual course, but you might be able to do this in the short game practice area as well. I think the shot type defaults to flop in the green side bunkers, so change it to full or pitch (something that gives you a shot length over 20 yards). Hit one and see if you get a different ball reaction on the green, and more accurate spin readings in the post shot analysis. If it looks like it does work that way hit a few more to confirm the whole procedure.

[mthunt]

I think it said outside of 20 yards. I'm not sure about inside 20 yards.

[EG$]

mthunt

I saw that too, but that doesn't make any sense. Why would they mention exiting putting mode when you're 20 yards out? Why would you ever be in putting mode 20 yards from the pin off of the green? I get that the Texas wedge is a possibility, but if you've ever tried putting through the fairway you know its NOT a possibility. Putting out of the rough? Also not a possibility. I don't understand the relevance.

I think you're right about the 'outside of 20 yards', which is why I wanted to test this. I saw the "its not a bug, its a feature" statement. I'm fine with that, but lets ENHANCE that feature. Take that feature a step further and make it closer to real. If a distance threshold exists (they said 20 yards) to enable the feature, i'm sure a lie type or shot type selection could also DISABLE the feature. A perfect apples to apples comparison is a shot that lands on the green. If the SkyTrak is triggered to switch to 'putting mode' with the lie type 'on green', we should be able to disable putting mode with the lie type 'in sand'. If boost can be applied to different club types 'Driver', FW Woods, Irons, etc.), I KNOW that the possibility to enhance this feature exists. This isn't a physics issue, this isn't a core game issue, this is an 'apply an existing feature in this scenario' issue.

If the test confirms that exiting the short chip correction (putting mode) is NOT a possibility, then we have to come up with something. I know I keep beating the dead (what can and cannot be done with the config file) horse, but I KNOW this can be fixed, and I want to see it get there. If the lie type detection (fairway, rough, sand) exception is a no go for whatever reason, they should be able to map the short chip correction to the 'chip' shot type OR ensure that the short chip correction isn't applied to the 'flop' shot type.

There are at least 4 different ideas about how this could be fixed in this thread. Let's pick the best one and make the game better.

[mthunt]

I have no idea. I didn’t make the comments. You could contact ProTee.

[EG$]

mthunt - Apologies. I know you didn't make the comments, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you did. I just want to keep the dialog going to improve the game for SkyTrak users.

I did end up contacting ProTee directly. I consolidated everything in this thread and sent it over.

They're usually very good about responding so we'll see what they say.

[JBIER04]

I have designed 7-8 local tracks here in the Saint Louis area. The biggest edits I have made is putting pins in the middle of green for this reason. Originally I had 4 pins on each hole spread out but I’m thinking about doing 1 more edit and knock it down to 3 pins at least 10 paces on from each side if possible. One way to look at is it’s a penalty for short siding yourself. Let your group know if you miss and short side yourself you aren’t getting up and down. Give more thought to your approach shots. Just an idea until it’s fixed.

Side note I’ll add all my lidar tracks to the sheet once I’ve played them all and make final edits. I have a skytrak and can only play in my garage when the mrs lets me.