Mevo+ spin axis issues

[pwade3]

Today was the first day that I really was able to try out the Mevo+ indoors. It started out very well and I was impressed with what I was seeing and numbers were similar to the Skytrak. More importantly the numbers were correlating to how my shots were feeling. I went pitching wedge, 8 iron and 6 iron. The M+ never missed a shot but it did have two shots it did not pick up club data but showed ball data. Spin axis seemed just fine as I was trying different shots (draws, fades etc) to see what it would pick up and it seemed fine. Spin axis was always a little less then the skytrak but only by a little.
Where things got weird was when I moved to the Driver. It would only read a large “right” spin axis where the skytrak would read left. The discrepancy was large. I even hit a few snap hooks on purpose and it would still read only a right axis. Has anyone seen this, or have any idea what is going on? I tried this with my 3 wood and same thing. Tried it with a hybrid and same issue. Went back to my 6 iron and it read almost exactly the same as the skytrak and would post a left axis when I hit a draw. I took some screen shots so you can see what I mean. It was odd to say the least and very disappointing. I had about 30 shots with the driver and maybe had 3 that showed any form of left axis.
I will add more pictures when I get them organized.
And none of you long bombers laugh at my weak numbers, I just turned 60, but I am a 5.4 index so I can play. Lol 😆
Mevo+ was 8ft from tee. 12 feet of ball flight. I tried both indoor and short indoor and found not difference. Almost all shots were with prov1 with metal dot. Tried without dot and no difference. No metal door behind screen (garage door is behind Mevo+)
Wire cables hold up screen but no other metal to interfere.
Tried with Skytrak removed and no change.
I have a fluorescent light in hitting bay, but it is not on. Does that matter if its on or not?? I know it can cause interference but is that with it on and why only driver and woods?
I tried leveling and aligning Mevo+ several times but no difference.
I will take it to the range in the next day or two to see what it will show (just need it warm up a few degrees)

[pwade3]

Looks like no range today as course is closed because it’s FROZEN ☃️

[Dax]

At least you have some hint of a course and being out hitting. I am shovelling the snow today

[pwade3]

Oh No. I’ll stop complaining. That’s not fair.

[pwade3]

Well, since the range was closed, I thought I would give it another go inside and see what I could figure out with my Mevo+ registering only right side spin. I tried it two ways. Short indoor with 8ft M+ to tee. Then tried it indoor mode with 8 ft M+ to tee and 13ft tee to screen.
Short indoor did not work well at all. Numbers seemed to be all over the place and it even missed some shots. It was also defaulting to a launch angle of 28.3. I could not figure why so I had my daughter come down and hit some drives with her clubs (she’s a really good golfer) and all her drivers registered 28.3 LA. All of them.
I then changed the set up to indoor mode and it worked much better. No default 28.3 launch angles and numbers seemed more consistent. I could not get it to register a left side spin. Please note I was using the E6 driving range for this to see if I could get any different results then what I had with FS app.
I was going to enter the ST data into the spreadsheet but my session did not upload to ST site for some reason. Yesterday’s did, but not today. I had taken some screen shots so that is where that data came from.
I was unable to get the Mevo+ to register a left side spin at anytime, no matter what I tried. I could hook the ball and it would only register a right side spin. If you look at the screen shot of the ST you can see that all shots were draw but M+ shows all with large side spin. The ST screen shot is for the indoor mode (not short indoor).
I did try a big slice to see what type of side spin the M+ would register but it basically registered the same right spin number that I was getting when I hit a draw. I was expecting a much larger right spin. Odd.
I did turn off my projector as it was 9 feet in front of the M+ but that made no difference. Unfortunately it is suppose to get to -10C tonight so likely the course will be closed tomorrow.
I will contact Flightscope and ask what they think 🤔. I’m at a loss.

[a98cr125]

I don't think certain units. I think all units are backwards for axis and or are not right yet. I am sure a firmware update can correct it. They have responded really fast to concerns and it appears than can correct quickly. The minute I gave them putting data and showed the concerns they had a BETA to test 48 hours later. I will do testing on spin axis next and get it to the team in South Africa and report back.

[trumb1mj]

“Flightscope is replacing his unit” would suggest there is a flaw with certain M+ units.

[a98cr125]

I didn’t see they were replacing it. 🤷🏼♂️

[pwade3]

a98cr125 I’m not sure what you mean by “units are backwards for axis”. On my unit, if I hit a shot that the actual ball will draw, Mevo+ shows a slice with a large right spin axis or side spin. If I hit a ball that would be a fade or slice, Mevo+ shows a large right axis or side spin. It’s not backwards. It’s only right. Never left. I understand that E6 labels side spin backwards (L for R and R for L) in their data label but that’s just E6. I’m not sure how Flightscope would correct mine with software, but good on them if they can.
Your videos show no such issue. Your driver seems to do what it should. I am tired of watching your driver carry further them my driver total though. lol 😆 Can they fix that for me!!!!

[Bubba22]

a98cr125 I’m not sure what you mean by “units are backwards for axis”. On my unit, if I hit a shot that the actual ball will draw, Mevo+ shows a slice with a large right spin axis or side spin. If I hit a ball that would be a fade or slice, Mevo+ shows a large right axis or side spin. It’s not backwards. It’s only right. Never left. I understand that E6 labels side spin backwards (L for R and R for L) in their data label but that’s just E6. I’m not sure how Flightscope would correct mine with software, but good on them if they can.
Your videos show no such issue. Your driver seems to do what it should. I am tired of watching your driver carry further them my driver total though. lol 😆 Can they fix that for me!!!!

I suspect your unit is faulty. Keep us posted with Flightscopes response.

The spin axis issue that I see with many of the comparison videos is not just a mix up in the labeling as some ball flights are the same yet others the exact opposite. It appears more evident in mild draws vs fades. Hopefully they have a fix for that. I would like to see a comparison video that showed huge slices, hooks with toe and heel shots.

[Dax]

Just need @leomode an opportunity to get his hands on a unit even just for a quick short term test.

[Bubba22]

Agreed. It would be nice to see a follow up video from Par2Pro as well.

[pwade3]

Maybe I should send him mine!!!!!!!!!👀

[Par2ProShane]

Bubba22 - We are still working with Flight Scope Tech to address the spin and spin access issues. We will be doing a follow up video once we the Mevo+ is good to go.

[Aapo]

My mevo+ arrived 12th day and I have shot probably around 1000 shots with it. I have not seen any weird spin axis issues using short indoor or indoor. My usual shot shape is quite straight, sometimes little draw and sometimes little fade. And mevo+ shows me the same.

[pwade3]

Aapo What set up do you have? Short indoor or indoor? Your shot shape sounds very similar to mine. So if you by chance hit a duck hook, would it show that? Are you a righty or lefty?

[Aapo]

My setup is indoor (not short indoor) but I have tested with short indoor as well. When I pull hook a shot, it shows the big hook that it should. When I block a shot it shows the fade I would expect. I am a righty and my ball speed is 160-170 mph and no problem even with driver.

[pwade3]

Aapo 160-170. Sheesh 🙄 back hurts just say that. Thanks.

[pwade3]

Bubba22 Ah, just the guy I was hoping for. I’m new to radar, so please forgive my lack of understanding. My question is in reference to the issue you have mentioned a few times about gear effect.
If the radar is measuring horizontal and vertical club angles (AOA, etc), and it is tracking the ball flight, and it is measuring ball spin, it should not matter if toe or heel shot happens as it is still measuring the ball parameters, such as outdoor use. I understand IRL what a toe shot will do as that is my miss, and it usually turns into a slight draw but with less ball speed. Thus, if axis is calculated on the rest of the data for indoors, I could see that radar will assume all strikes are center and even if it is toe, heel, it would assume its center, which is a problem indoors. At what point in the swing does it start to measure the club head data?

[pwade3]

Just to be clear, I’m not complaining. This is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, especially with what is going on in the world. Just curious as to what I have going on and its great to get a little more educated at the same time. Thank you all for your insight and help. I’m sure it will all get figured out. Maybe it just does not like my swing!!! (Or my daughters). Maybe I’ll get my wife in there and see what happens.

[Bubba22]

Bubba22 Ah, just the guy I was hoping for. I’m new to radar, so please forgive my lack of understanding. My question is in reference to the issue you have mentioned a few times about gear effect.
If the radar is measuring horizontal and vertical club angles (AOA, etc), and it is tracking the ball flight, and it is measuring ball spin, it should not matter if toe or heel shot happens as it is still measuring the ball parameters, such as outdoor use. I understand IRL what a toe shot will do as that is my miss, and it usually turns into a slight draw but with less ball speed. Thus, if axis is calculated on the rest of the data for indoors, I could see that radar will assume all strikes are center and even if it is toe, heel, it would assume its center, which is a problem indoors. At what point in the swing does it start to measure the club head data?

Flightscope may have a new method of measuring/calculating spin axis, however we would assume it's similar to Trackman. If it's not, we all would love to know that. Trackman methods are being upgraded to allow for gear effect. https://golfsimulatorforum.com/forum...-rate-accuracy

Leomode and Dax can chime in. Basically indoor radar will struggle with spin axis due to the short flight and lower ball revolutions. Outdoors Is not an issue. To get spin axis, radar uses calculations (like everything indoors) that that assumes center face contact to determine spin axis. Radar units cannot accurately determine face angle so rely on club path/AoA/ball direction etc to get the face to path ratio etc to help figure out the ball spin axis. Trackman is developing methods to determine face contact that will allow for adjustments in spin to accommodate for more positive (heel) or more negative (toe) spin determination. Camera units just measure spin with pictures so less of an issue.

Perhaps Dax/Leomode and others can comment on this. Again, maybe Flightscope have developed a new way of spin axis measurement.

[Dax]

LEO MODE (please chime in as well) I think we would need FS to come on and explain how they are measuring as I am assuming that TM is now doing something different from how they calculated these things with the TM3e. I am thinking TM is including some data analytics into their measurements and combing what they are reading with what the camera is telling. Leomode has had more conversations with this.

please also remember that the way in which TM measures spin is different from how spin is measured by FS. There was a case found in favour of TM in a patent a few years ago.

I am sure FS is not going to come out and say how they are erring their spin axis determination, but perhaps they could say which types of gear effect they are having issue with like TM did back in 2014 (this was a long time ago and I am not sure if it is still relevant however it was nice for them to come out and say which shot type gave them issues.

the best news that I have heard though is from a comment from LeoMode’s site where he shared what to expect this year from TM. Was was very keen to read that TM was working with some ball companies to create a ball that would allow TM to measure spin axis indoors. This is something that I was really happy to read as while I think the Way they measure spin axis at the moment is pretty good (still not perfect), but this new ball would be game changing (perhaps for all radar).

hope this helps, but from the testing by others on the Mevo+ I am actually thinking it is an issue with the unit given how often it is happening when compared to others. I would hope this would be easy to see or resolve through a remote session with FS. If it not a hardware issue then I think they could diagnose what is creating the issue pretty readily (it is amazing the information they can see on remote sessions that i have had with TM).

Irrespective of the above, I am at the point where I think the way in which spin is “measured” by radar at the moment is pretty good, but I also suspect that it is not perfect. I used measured as a word here In quotes as I believe somethings are getting measured well others are in someway being computer (like I said above I am assuming some type of data analytics is being used by TM).

I just wish TM would star writing some more of their amazing articles on these types of things like they did in the past. This was in relation to when people said Radar cannot see what is happening when a club hits the ball as it cannot see the impact. TM’s response if I recall correctly was using the analogy of a cell phone that gets reception whe. It is around a corner or not in direct view of a cell tower and how the waves travel around corners. I also think they showed pictorial examples of what the radar could see at the point of contact. I believe this in part is how they are able to measure impact location now (again combined with the camera). Another example is how we all noted that radar needed to see two and half revolutions of the ball indoor as the radar needs to see the metal dot 3 times in order to get an accurate spin reading and then hearing from one of the FS videos where FS said that the radar can actually see the metal dot through the ball. Again, we just assume that the radar is seeing what we can see, when really it is so different from what we would otherwise expect.

[LEO MODE]

Hey OP, first of all thanks for your posting your test results. Sorry for jumping into the conversation late.

I think we should talk about a few things first here before we really dive into the Spin Axis conversation of comparison details:

1) Skytrak doesn't seem to measure spin axis (sidespin) properly all the time either, causing excessive hooks and draw-biased sometimes.
2) Flightscope hasn't confirmed which data parameters from Mevo+ were directly measured or calculated first and foremost.

Combining 1) + 2) and testing them side by side doesn't really give us a conclusion that either one could be the standard and accurate, unless you test them side by side outdoor.

For me, getting into a conversation about Trackman and comparing that to Mevo+ is irrelevant solely because Flightscope and Trackman are two different companies and their way of measurement could be different too (just like how Skytrak and Foresight can be different in measurements).

As a general rule of thumb based off of Trackman 4 device however, is that for Spin Axis measurement you would need at least 30yds of ball flight to accurately measure the data, and if it's less than 30yds just like what bubba and dax said above it calculates it by using various back-calculations of looking at different data parameters.

Trackman 4 has released an update on August 2019 specifically for indoor gear effect. Trackman has a camera that was for swing recording, but by disabling the feature Trackman can then use its camera to specifically capture and only focus on the impact area to gather more precise data. My test with a driver demonstrated that roughly around 8 out of 10 times showed close to identical ball flight as GCQuad indoors after August 2019 update, where as originally it was around 2 out of 10 before August 2019; which is a huge improvement. Trackman 4 has then updated again back in November/December 2019 time frame to improve this further but unfortunately I haven't been able to test it thoroughly. However just from a casual playing they seem pretty much the same as the first update. For lower club shots such as irons, before update it was around 7 out of 10 that showed correct flight, but now it's nearly 10 out of 10, meaning that Trackman 4 is getting close to showing correct Spin Axis on any clubs soon.

So what's my conclusion? I think as per below:

1) I would have to compare Mevo+ to Trackman 4 and GCQuad indoor and outdoor to see some clear differences and really draw a concrete and empirical result.
2) Just because it's a radar doesn't mean that you can discriminate it by saying all radars cannot read Spin Axis indoors. For Trackman 4 that might go moot fairly soon and Flightscope and Trackman are two different companies. If Foresight and Skytrak updates their flaws too their discrimination of camera units will go moot which I hope to see (i.e. Foresight low spin carry boost and other calculated data such as Apex).
3) Drawing a conclusion solely from the feel on a driver shot is difficult imho, because even professional players do not handle their driver shots as they want to. Therefore, by visually seeing a full flight or using a device to compare that you can get as close result as possible such as GC2/GCQuad will be necessary.

I'll be open to comparing the unit if anyone is willing to lend me for a few weeks

[Dax]

LEO MODE thanks for the additional information. I will be crossing my fingers and toes you will be able to get a unit for testing.

[Bubba22]

Thanks Dax and Leomode. Always great to get your inputs. Keep us posted with new changes. I completely agree with you on radar difference just as Camera based differences. I would love to see you guys test the Mevo plus. I would love to get a unit and test against GC2 as well.

[pwade3]

Dax Bubba22 LEO MODE Thanks for your wonderful information and thoughts. Just to confuse things, I put on an extra layer and braved the driving range only to find I had overdressed as the sun was warming things up. Anyway....
To make a long story short, my Mevo+ worked flawlessly at the range. It never missed a shot (68 shots) and no matter what type of shot you made it would pick up what we were seeing. Spin axis seemed accurate and lots of left spin axis with the driver, woods and hybrid. Distances were short, but were talking cold weather and range balls. I did hit an older proV and it did travel noticeably further. I had several club members want to try it including a scratch golfer and he thought it was spot on and was very impressed. The one thing that I forgot to do (which was important) was to put it to indoor mode and see what it reported. I will try again tomorrow at the range.
So, I’m not where that puts me, I might try indoor with about 16ft of flight and see what I get. I know its not me. Even if its a slightly different swing indoors I should be able to put a left spin on the ball. I have had the sim for 5 years and it did take a little time to feel comfortable even thought its a big space, but I have not had an issue with the skytrak and I know that’s a poor comparison but I
Think its a good guideline for me to see what my ball flight is doing compared to the Mevo+.

[mikestuewe]

Can you do multiple distances, and try short indoor mode instead of just indoor mode?

[pwade3]

I did try both indoor and short indoor at 16ft of ball flight and could not find any noticeable difference. I will try that at my normal 11 ft of flight and see what I get.