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The problem with owning your own GC2/HMT

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  • The problem with owning your own GC2/HMT

    Yes I have found a problem with owning your own GC2/HMT.

    Now I am trying my best to improve my game so one of the things I did was go in and get fitted for a custom set of clubs, and I paid $250.00 for a full bag fitting. I was told the Mizuno clubs I had were not right for me, shafts were too long and too stiff, and the head was wrong for me. I was fitted and told that the Ping G400 was the best club for me, so I sold (at lest I thought) my Mizuno clubs and got me a set of Ping G400 clubs with AWT 2.0 regular shafts stander length. Now I have been working with them trying to get my game back up to where it was but just never could get it back to where I was, I even up-graded to a set of Ping G410 clubs set to the same specifications as my Ping G400 clubs had. Then guy who was going to buy my clubs but never paid me for them calls me up and tells me he has had the clubs under his bed and had forgotten about them and wanted to know if I wanted them back, I said I did. Now he has had the clubs for a little over 18 months, I thought about trying to sell them again but recalled that my brother-in-law plays with a set of clubs he bought back in the 60s so I figured I would just send the clubs to him, which I did.
    After I had sent them off I got to thinking I should have tried them out on my GC2/HMT to see just how much better I am doing with my Ping Clubs, wish I had thought of that before shipping them. I went to digging through the clubs I have and found a 7I in a Callaway XR, and a Callaway Big Bertha, and a mizuno Hot Metal with a + 2" shaft, all of the shafts being stiff, not regular as I was told I now need and have on my Ping clubs. I did a warm up and then hit a 5 shot group with each club, and looked at the results. I then hit another 5 shot group and checked again getting the same results. I then did a 10 shot group and upon comparing the results.

    I have found the problem with owning your own GC2/HMT, I now know that my $250.00 club fitting was a waste, and that my Ping clubs are the worst of the bunch, with the two Callaway clubs in a close tie in the middle and the Mizuno club coming out on top giving me 27 more yards than what my Ping club will do. I wanted to be fair and in going over that data I saw that I was hitting toe down even with the Mizuno, so I went to 2nd Swing and looked at what they had in used single clubs to no avail, and then I went to the new clubs and ordered a Ping G410 7I silver dot with a +2" Nippon NS Pro Modus 3 tour 105 stiff shaft, and a Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro 7I 3.5 degrees up on lie with a +2" Nippon NS Pro Modus 3 tour 105 stiff shaft. I have spent several days hitting those two clubs and comparing how well they perform, they are closer but I get about four more yards and a tighter pattern out of the Mizuno than what I do out of the Ping. Part of the problem is the Mizuno hit pretty much center of the sweet spot and the ping tends to hit more towards the toe, not much 3/8" or so, but enough to make a difference in pattern and distance. I checked with Golf Galaxy and to change out shafts and grips will cost about $400.00 or so but they can not change the lie angle. I checked with second swing, if I sell them my Ping G400, and G410 clubs it will pay for a full set on Mizuno clubs less the putter, Ping clubs costing more. The wife is trying out my Ping G410 clubs and so far likes them and is doing better with them than what she is with the clubs she has been using, and for now I am using the grandson's Callaway XR set. I just sold the timber off my place so I placed an order for the Mizuno clubs, I ordered a used Mizuno ST 180 Driver, a 2I and a 3I Mizuno MP 18 MMC Fli-Hi, 3-PW Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro, and GW, SW, and LW Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal, had the Mizuno MP 18 MMC Fli-Hi lofts set at 14.5 and 17 degrees, all irons having the Nippon NS Pro Modus 3 tour 105 shaft. So I will now see if I can get my game back down to where it use to be and hopefully do even better than that. Problem isn't a problem when it helps, and being able to see how the club is performing is well worth it, I just wish I had gotten my GC2/HMT a lot earlier.

  • #2
    That is one of the major problems with the "fitting" industry. Anyone can call themselves a "fitter" but the vast majority are not really qualified to do it. Lots of misinformation and misconceptions even among the self proclaimed "experts". All that you saw with your own self exploration would have been just as clear during a real fitting.

    FWIW, I had similar issues and going through that problem (in my case a poor shaft fit) is what triggered me to do my research and learn about how a real fitting should work and got me to be able to fit myself fairly well. And that was even before I had an LM. They certainly can be very helpful tools but not really necessary to recognize and correct major problems like that.
    Last edited by StuartG; 05-15-2019, 06:12 PM.

    Comment


    • BGCurtis2nd
      BGCurtis2nd commented
      Editing a comment
      It sure does a good job of narrowing it down, it shows me I am hitting more to the toe on the ping even thought it has the same shaft and grip as the Mizuno and it shows me just how tight a group I am hitting. Now the lie is up 0.25 degrees more on the Ping than what it is on the Mizuno but I do not believe that is a factor and I ordered the set of Mizuno clubs 0.5 degrees more up than what I had on the single 7 Iron, I am still hitting toe low. The major problems with the "fitting" industry is it is time based and they really don't have the time to check all that needs to be checked. Having the equipment to use as I please gives me the opportunity to go through it several times over several days and save the information to compare to see if there are any changes. Plus I can play using different grips and all just to see how each effects me, I can also compare balls to see which one performs best for me. Main reason for getting it was so the wife and I didn't have to drive for an hour one-way just to play a round of golf, or to be able to play on days the weather is to bad to go to the real course, having it to check everything else is just a plus.

    • StuartG
      StuartG commented
      Editing a comment
      No question they can be helpful. My point was just that there are other tools that can be used as well to get pretty close. Foot powder spray is a very accurate and cheap way to show face impact location and consistency. A dry erase marker is all that's needed to check the lie angle fit. Paying attention to changes in feel can be very helpful (and as important as the numbers in many cases). And simply watching for changes in the ball flight on the range as well can tell you most of what you need to know to get a decent fit.

  • #3
    Ouch man. If I let go of that kind of cash and then was improperly fitted I'd raise holy hell with that "fitter". Best suggestion is to try and stick to the GOLF TOP 100 fitters list. I'm really lucky that in my state, I have quite a few and one that is truly exceptional at their fittings. My set, was an on sale deal, that I got from the local Golf Galaxy. Their fitter was meh....

    But to be truthfully honest, I've got serious issues with my swing so fitting me is like trying to get a monkey on crack to stay still. I'm OK with my clubs that I have and in the future I'll get a pro-fitting when I make the jump to a set of Forged Irons... (Long way away for me)

    Best money I spent outside of my sim was getting a professional fitting for a putter. That was totally worth it, especially the tech they use to show you exactly what you are doing.

    Comment


    • BGCurtis2nd
      BGCurtis2nd commented
      Editing a comment
      Was over 18 months ago that I got the fitting so kind of late to be complaining about it. Could be that my swing has changed I am not sure, just was very surprised by the results. My putter is still correct they did get that part right at lest as far as I can tell, it is a Ping Sigma G Wolverine T Putter with a UST Frequency Filtered Shaft seems to go right where I aim it, now if I can just improve my reads. I have broken my back three times, not near as much fun as they tell you it is, plus I wear a 2" buildup and brace on my left shoe so my swing is not very typical. I tried the forged they hit nice but the Mizuno JPX Hot Metal Pro Irons seem to do the trick I am averaging 162 yds. with the 7I so hope the rest of the set does as well for me.

  • #4
    Every time i turn around the new driver is 5 yards longs and the new iron is straighter and more forgiving. Funny, at that rate I should be hitting it 100 yards longer than 20 years ago. For shits and giggles I pulled out my old Cobra 9 Degree Deep face driver with X100 43 inch shaft from college from the 90’s and Hit some balls in my sim. I got almost the same numbers as my brand new titliest driver with 45 inch Diamana Blue shaft. Go figure. Marketing.

    Comment


    • BGCurtis2nd
      BGCurtis2nd commented
      Editing a comment
      Well originally I was thinking they would be close, with my Ping clubs being the better, when I found the difference I was just going to order a set of used clubs and go with the Mizuno JPX 900 Hot Metal. Only problem with used is I could not get them setup just the way I wanted, so I decided to order a new set of irons, but I did get a Mizuno ST 180 with a Kuro Kage Duel-Core Tini 70 extra stiff shaft $200.00 cheaper than what a Mizuno ST 190 would cost me. My Mizuno driver is doing a little better on distance, not a lot but a little, but it is a whole lot straighter than what I hit with the Ping, I am getting the readings off my GC2/HMT so it is not just hype. I tried a Kuro Kage Duel-Core Tini 60 stiff shaft on the Ping driver and it preformed better than what the HZRDUS Yellow regular flex does, also tried a HZRDUS Red stiff flex and it to out preformed the HZRDUS yellow. On my irons, I have gone through it many times and still getting the same variance within a few yards, best being 18 yards worst being 31 yards averages, and that was using the Mizuno JPX 900 2" +, stiff shaft vs the Ping G 410 stander regular flex club. With the Mizuno JPX 919 Hot metal pro vs Ping G 410 with matching shafts, grips, and lie I am ranging from 3 to 8 yards difference on average. Would just go with new shafts and grips but I think the lie adjustment is helping a lot and can not get that changed without going to new clubs.

    • BGCurtis2nd
      BGCurtis2nd commented
      Editing a comment
      "My Mizuno driver is doing a little better on distance, not a lot but a little, but it is a whole lot straighter than what I hit with the Ping"
      Needed to say that is compared to the Mizuno ST 180 with a Kuro Kage Duel-Core Tini 70 extra stiff shaft vs Ping G 410 with a Kuro Kage Duel-Core Tini 60 stiff shaft.

  • #5
    Sometimes the manufacturers aren't using standard loft numbers. Taylormade was, and maybe is selling stronger lofted clubs. Yes the 5 iron does go further, but it's actually a 4 iron. Shady ploys to sell more clubs indeed

    Comment


    • Ports
      Ports commented
      Editing a comment
      I have three sets of irons. Everything is nearly identical between the three, except the Taylormade, its just one club off, including the loft angle

  • #6
    Originally posted by Ports View Post
    Sometimes the manufacturers aren't using standard loft numbers. Taylormade was, and maybe is selling stronger lofted clubs. Yes the 5 iron does go further, but it's actually a 4 iron. Shady ploys to sell more clubs indeed
    There’s actually more to it than that. The irons are designed differently causing them to go too high so they need to lower the loft to have the correct flight. The adverse effect is longer irons and 5 irons that are actually 4 irons. It’s more a result than marketing.

    Comment


    • StuartG
      StuartG commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes, there is a small amount of truth to that - but not nearly as much as the marketing folks want you to believe. The "distance sells" reasoning for much of those increases is still a real thing.
      Last edited by StuartG; 05-16-2019, 12:26 PM.

    • Wizard of Coz
      Wizard of Coz commented
      Editing a comment
      Mthunt that's what i saw too. Those hot irons launch it higher so they have to lower the launch angle by reducing loft.

  • #7
    I ordered a Ping G 410 and a Mizuno JPX Hot Metal Pro 7I, both setup with the same shaft, grip, and everything the same except a 0.25 degree difference in lie (just the way the clubs are made). According to the GC2/HMT readings it shows I hit from 1.8 degrees up to 2.3 degrees down with the ping compared to 1.6 degrees down to 4.8 degrees down with the Mizuno. Now I use the same setup with both clubs and needless to say as far as I can tell the same swing, loft on both clubs is suppose to be 30 degrees, so to me it would seem the difference would be in the head weighting or something on that order. I do not get the distance out of the Ping that I get out of the Mizuno, and I have a tighter grouping with the Mizuno. So far all I have to compare is the 7I from each set, I went ahead and ordered a full set of Mizuno JPX Hot Metal Pro irons and am waiting on them so I can see if they all preform as well as what the 7I has shown. Now I know the added yardage claims are not all they are cracked up to be, I went with a used Mizuno ST 180 driver just because I don't believe the distance between the old ST 180 and the new ST 190 are really all that much. I went with new Irons because I can get them setup the way I want them which can not be done with the used irons. Now I went with +2" on shaft length, and had the lie up 4 degrees, and I know there are some fitters that are going to say that is way too much, but not according to the numbers I am getting off my GC2/HMT showing that is what is giving me my best performance. Also I have to say I have broken my back three times, and I wear a 2" buildup and brace on my left shoe which changes my stance greatly from what most would call normal, add the fact that I am 68 years old and it all adds up to hitting the ball too far being a mute point. I have tried to learn as much as I can about golf and the equipment as I can, I know sales claims do not always amount to what is there, but I do know that being able to see the results of what your clubs are doing lets you make a very informed decision.

    Comment


    • #8
      Ping will adjust all loft and lies for you. It used to be 5.00 a club for lie.

      What I loved about my CG2 was I new how much carry I was getting. I found it to be with in a couple yards. I play with the true temper s300 for years and trust the shaft. I always spine my shafts myself and change grips to what I like. I will then hit my clubs and look at the carry distance and have the loft moved to lofts I want for my distance gaps. Irons off the rack are not always the loft that is advertised. Always get put on a launch monitor and hit every club your buying and look at distances.

      Comment


      • #9
        Golfer1204 Well the person I talked to said they could't adjust the lie said I would have to buy new heads, I had called and ask because I was wanting to just change out the shafts that would have been my best rout for the cost.
        I had went to a fitter and was put on a launch monitor when I got the Pings, problem I had was the launch monitor I had at home at the time didn't really show what was going on it just gave a general distance depending on which club you selected. When I got the GC2/HMT is when I found out what was going on as you can see from the picture the readings I got, yet on the fitting the Mizuno JPX 900 Hot Metal was poorer performing than that of what The Ping G 400 was doing. My fitting was over 18 months ago so it very well could be that my swing has changed, but at one point my score was in the 80s for 18 holes over several months with the best being an 81, hope to get it back down to that or better. When I get my new clubs I will see how they do from club to club and if need be will send them back to Mizuno to get adjusted.

        Comment


        • #10
          Yep, it's a whole racket designed to produce a bit of revenue and make them seem more professional and give you a bit of confidence in your purchase. When they pull out the plastic lie board, I just laugh. The only real club fitting is a few hours on an HMT and you have to fit each club, since they vary so much from the factory. Finally pulled the trigger and bought a bending tool, so I can adjust every iron to the exact loft (for distance gapping) and lie. I've also found that some sets are darn near perfect off the shelf and some are like 4 degrees too upright or flat. After adjusting the loft myself so many times, I can pretty much tell by sight how close they are to level.

          One time I showed my teaching professional that his "fitted" clubs were 2 degrees too upright. After seeing it on the screen, looking at the dots, and then finding a club that had the right lie, he could see it for himself for the first time, and he had been teaching for decades.

          Comment


          • Deuce
            Deuce commented
            Editing a comment
            Check out golfworks.com - I have their value line machine. Recommend buying a few cheap irons from a thrift shop to practice bending clubs. The first couple of times take a little practice and you're likely to leave marks on the hosel if you don't invest in the non-marring bending bar. It's a bit of trial and error to get both loft/lie right as you bend and then check with HMT, then bend again. Of course, bending the club means you'll have to put on a few new dots at each check, so it really does take a few hours per club, but you know exactly what you've got when you're finally done.

          • BGCurtis2nd
            BGCurtis2nd commented
            Editing a comment
            Deuce Thank you, I checked it out and book marked it. I have a few sets of older clubs to play with.

          • Baller
            Baller commented
            Editing a comment
            Yup, I have one from them as well and works great, not over priced.
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