Carry Distance

[Mike80]

GC2 Users: Are you experiencing anything like this:

Not every shot, but a lot of shots in TGC, the Carry Distance is much shorter than the Carry Distance on GC2. I'm referring to shots that are from fairway and no wind and not uphill. So no penalty should be applied. I'm seeing 10 to 15 yards shorter carry many times. This is a big deal because that's usually a club or two difference and has negative results when expecting a different outcome. Frustrated!

See example below. Also note, only pay attention to Carry Distance. That's what I'm talking about. Not total distance. In example below the ball landed in bunker. So only look at Carry.

I also confirmed the GSX settings don't have any adjustments increasing or decreasing anything for any parameters.

TGC: Carry 145 yards
GC2: Carry 156 yards

[GSF_Admin]

Post moved.

[Js1010]

Looking at the shot analysis screen it looks like you were in the sand and didn't land in it? If so, that distance loss would make sense. 7% loss of distance in sand.

[Cklguy2013]

Yes does look like a shot from the sand, which I find is about a 1 club penalty.

[Js1010]

Really need to test distance on a flat range. Hard on course with elevations and things. Distances in TGC are decent if you are around 5k for 5i, 6k for 6i, 7k for 7i or even 1.5-2k less than what I specficed, the carry distances should not be 10-15 yards off. If you get too low spin then you may see distances that can be off 10 plus yards. Protee said they were going to address these low spin issues in an upcomign update.

Post a group of shots from a flat range if you belive there is an issue beyond very low spin shots - For your shot above, my recollection is what is displayed in the analysis screen is what you hit from.

[Mike80]

Here are two more I just captured. I'm on the ProTee Distance Range with no wind. These were with my 3 wood. My 7 iron was pretty close in both TGC and GC2. Like I said, some shots are just way off. I would think TGC would take the carry distance directly from GC2 and output the exact carry distance. Then if in rough or sand or wind apply the penalties toward the shot. But in perfect condition on range I would expect to see the exact carry as my GC2. Any thoughts???

TGC: 174 yards carry
GC2: 185 yards carry

TGC: 170 yards carry
GC2: 188 yards carry

See screen shots below:

[goatbarn]

Tgc and any other sim software for that matter take the measured launh parameters from the hardware and send them through the softwares ball flight algorithms.

In this case TGCs algorithms are different than GC2s. That explains the difference in carry.

I agree with you that TGCs algorithms are not ideal in certain scenarios, but I also can't say that GC2s are the "gold standard".

[goatbarn]

And for obvious reasons...foresight is not going to "share" their algorithms for use in tgc.

So it's up to us to use trusted ball flight models like optima flight (name?) And flightscope optimizer to help protee tweak the ball flight algorithms.

[Mike80]

Thanks for the info goatbarn

I know the GC2 is very accurate. Just would like to see TGC and GC2 closer. Makes it frustrating playing TGC tournament and I land short of the green when my GC2 says I should be 10-15 yards further landing.

Doesn't TGC take carry distance from GC2 output also. Obviously I don't know how TGC calculates but would think if GC2 says 150 carry then TGC could calculate knowing it should equal 150 carry. But it sounds like TGC doesn't consider the GC2 carry output, and just takes the other numbers and calculates their own carry.

[goatbarn]

That's correct. TGC can't just take carry from GC2.

It has to model the curve, spin, launch angle. All the launch parameters are sent through a ball flight algorithm that produce carry.

If it sent carry, then back-calculated the necessary ball launch info....your GC2 numbers for all other parameters besides carry wouldn't be used in TGC....which is kind of silly if you think about it.

What needs to happen is that protee needs a plethora of data from users to tweak the algorithms to better accomodate a wider range of launch conditions more accurately.

[Mike80]

I just finished playing the TGC tournament. I had many shots that are 15 yards short on carry compared to GC2 carry. I'm only bringing this up because two weeks ago I was playing with a Skytrak and TGC. I didn't have these carry issues with Skytrak and the ball landed where it normally should regarding carry distance. So I am definitely noticing a big difference playing TGC from Skytrak to GC2.

I know each device has a different interface for TGC. But something really feels off with TGC and GC2 and carry numbers.

[goatbarn]

That's suprising to me, as that would mean that Skytrak's ball algorithms are being used in TGC when played with a Skytrak, and when played with a GC2...TGC is using some other set of algorithms.

I'd be curious to see if protee would allow some of the TGC testers to use Skytrak algorithm....if that's possible.

[Sascha1818]

No TGC definitely uses it's own algorithm. it only takes the data ( spin, launch angle, ball speed etc. From the hardware) The only thing I can think of is that spin has a bigger impact in the foresight algorithm. skytrak and TGC might be closer to each other than TGC and foresight.

[Eagle1]

I did some comparisons a while back; the results for me were that the TGC over predicted carry distances relative to GC2 for a draw, and under predicted for a fade.

[mthunt]

This has been discussed before. The firmware and GSX/TGC version effect carry distance greatly. Also check your sliders. Make sure they are all zero. I recommend firmware 3.5.1.1 I find TGC on a flat green with 3.5 within a yard or 2 on most clubs and TGC is long if anything.

[Mike80]

This has been discussed before. The firmware and GSX/TGC version effect carry distance greatly. Also check your sliders. Make sure they are all zero. I recommend firmware 3.5.1.1 I find TGC on a flat green with 3.5 within a yard or 2 on most clubs and TGC is long if anything.

mthunt I have GC2 firmware ver 3.10.0.0 installed. Where can I get the version you recommended? If I get an older firmware, can I downgrade my current firmware to 3.5.1.1? I checked Foresight's website and don't see where I can get that version.

I just finished playing a TGC round and again, can confirm many many shots are way short on carry as compared to GC2 output. I wouldn't have brought this topic up if I weren't seeing such a huge difference. I have both TGC and PG and have tested both on the range and PG's carry match GC2 within 1 or 2 yards. I'm getting 15 yards or more short on carry in TGC on many shots.

Maybe the firmware you are suggesting will resolve this. I would like to install it and try it out and then can report back if that fixes the problem I am seeing. Really want to find a solution to this.

Thanks for any info you can provide!!!

[Mike80]

I just PM someone hoping to get firmware ver. 3.5.1.0. I found the GC2 firmware thread and looks like others stated distance issues in TGC with ver. 3.10. So I am hoping to get a copy of the older firmware to try. I will report back if this resolves the issue. I really hope so! It's driving me nuts!

[FaultyClubs]

Since PG is correct but TGC is way short, how will new firmware fix things? In other words, if 3.5 fixes TGC then won't PG be long?

[Js1010]

There has been a lot of talk on this subject since the beginning and I don't really understand where people are getting that the firmware on GC2 can affect TGC carry number.


Here is my understanding: The firmware version on the gc2 does have an affect on the carry distance shown on the gc2 unit itself. TGC does not use the gc2 carry number at all- just the ball launch parameters are fed in to TGC which TGC then uses its carry algorithm to generate its own carry number. The protee interface can also have an affect on the TGC carry distance if you tweak things in there.

You can see the TGC SDK that describes how protee sends the ball parameters to TGC.

http://csc.protee-united.com/hc/en-us/articles/216279128-The-Golf-Club-SDK-v1-1

May look complicated if you don't have a computer background, but if you look closely at what this is describing it shows what parameters are sent to TGC and GC2 carry is not one them.

Mike, I ran one of your shots through Optimal Flight - the one that carried 185 on GC2. Optimal FLight showed 184.4 for that same shot. In this case, I would say that the back spin you generated for this shot (3141) was lower than your standard range for a 185 yard shot and thus ran in to the TGC bug dealing with lower spin shots. I am guessing if you got the backspin in the mid 4k range for this shot it would be a lot closer to the gc2 185 carry number.

The only way I can see that the gc2 firmware could affect the TGC carry number is if different versions of the gc2 firmware measured spin differently. This idea just doesn't seem plausible to me and probably pretty hard to figure out if your 8 iron is spinning at 7800 or 7400 on different firmware versions.