Reducing radar reflections

[Woosie]

I've recently started working on my first simulator setup in my garage. It's semi-permanent, consisting of archery baffle netting on a curtain track (the kind you find in hospitals). Next stage is choosing the launch monitor...

I was going to go with Skytrak, but decided to wait until the PGA Merchandise Show to see if there were any new products. And wow, the Flightscope Mevo+ looks amazing! I have sufficient room to use its "short indoor" mode. But there might still be a problem...

I am well aware of the fact that radar-based launch monitors struggle indoors, and that small metal dots are used to improve the spin measurement. Remember that word, "metal"...

Behind my net is a huge sheet of metal, commonly known as a garage door 😱. I fear that the microwave signal reflected back from the door will swamp the signal reflected from the ball. Are my fears justified?

I researched microwave absorber products, and realised I could end up spending more on these than I would on the Mevo+ 🙄. Water is an excellent absorber of microwaves, so that offers a much more economical option, if I can just work out how to build something which will provide a barrier of an inch or two depth of water between the net and the door.

Has anyone looked into doing something like this?

All ideas gratefully accepted!

Alan.

[Dax]

It was a huge head scratcher for me and took me a while to even believe that it could be an issue. However, when I moved from my garage sim set-up to my studio set up I went from 10 foot ceilings to 9 feet. Prior to putting up the projector I did a bunch of testing to make sure that my new location worked with the radar and it did without issue (look way back to my early days and I was having issues with the reflection from my metal garage door). From this testing everything worked perfectly until I then installed my projector and bringing it down that extra foot started to create issues where nothing was being read. It really stumped me, but as soon as I remembered that there is a spinning wheel and fan in my projector it got me thinking and so I raised the height of the projector and fortunately got rid of the issues. It has been a solid set-up ever since and I am hoping to move to a sim room ver 2.5 update soon (sim room ver 3 is a bit of a pipe dream for me that would see me try to raise ceiling height above hitting area by a half a foot, but this update would also see me taking out the wall to the bedroom of my sim area which would then give me 15 feet of ball flight as well as an area for couches, chipping area and much more - one can always dream).

[tonybrown32]

It was a huge head scratcher for me and took me a while to even believe that it could be an issue. However, when I moved from my garage sim set-up to my studio set up I went from 10 foot ceilings to 9 feet. Prior to putting up the projector I did a bunch of testing to make sure that my new location worked with the radar and it did without issue (look way back to my early days and I was having issues with the reflection from my metal garage door). From this testing everything worked perfectly until I then installed my projector and bringing it down that extra foot started to create issues where nothing was being read. It really stumped me, but as soon as I remembered that there is a spinning wheel and fan in my projector it got me thinking and so I raised the height of the projector and fortunately got rid of the issues. It has been a solid set-up ever since and I am hoping to move to a sim room ver 2.5 update soon (sim room ver 3 is a bit of a pipe dream for me that would see me try to raise ceiling height above hitting area by a half a foot, but this update would also see me taking out the wall to the bedroom of my sim area which would then give me 15 feet of ball flight as well as an area for couches, chipping area and much more - one can always dream).

That's a very nice dream... If I ever move (and that's not likely any time soon without help from the lottery), an indoor space for a sim room is a requirement!

I'll have to keep this in mind as I search for a new projector (also on the upgrade list soon)... one that has good keystone so I can mount close to the ceiling, point the lens downwards a smidge, and adjust with keystone... just to keep it as high and out of the way as possible!

Thanks for the input!

[Woosie]

Dax Where was the projector in relation to the launch monitor when it caused problems? Could you estimate the angle of elevation in relation to the LM? In my case it would be approximately 35 degrees. (Obviously we're talking about fine margins here if raising the projector 6 inches solved the problem for you, but it might help me to predict similar problems in my setup.)

[Dax]

Woosie Let me take the measurements and come back to you. I will let you know where I am at now and try to estimate at what height I had the problem.

[Dax]

Woosie, front of radar to back of projector is approx. 102 inches. Bottom of projector to the bottom of my TM box (i.e not including the height of the legs) is approx. 96 inches and the radar sat approx 9 inches lower than this when I was having the problems.

[Woosie]

Thanks Dax . That's an angle of elevation of over 43 degrees. In my proposed setup, to achieve the same angle the projector would need to be at least 2.9m from the screen, which is approximately 3.5m diagonally. I might need to rethink my plan to use a short throw projector...
(That's assuming the angle of elevation is the key factor here, rather than straight line proximity to the projector.)

[cmj_golf]

I have a FlightScope Xi-Tour set up in my garage. I have 8 feet from radar to ball and 9’ 10” from ball to screen. Originally, I wanted to set this up so I can hit towards the garage door. I was experiencing a failure rate of 40% - 80% in spin rate calculations. As an example an 8 iron would normally spin around 7,500 and then read around 1,000. The driver bad reads would be the inverse. Going from 2,200 to 4,600 or so. I worked closely with FlightScope and they confirmed there was interference. I turned my set up to hit away from the door and all has been well for over a year.

Well, I wanted to revisit this since I am looking to upgrade my screen and mat. A suggestion I received from FlightScope was to use metal mesh screen. This is common to reduce the effects of fans and fluorescent lights. So, I recently was in Home Depot and picked up aluminum metal screen. I set up my FlightScope facing the garage door and hit some 8 irons without the screening in place, just to check one more time and remove any doubt that some other variable is playing a factor. I was also sure to set up exactly 8’ from radar to ball and 9’10” from ball to screen. The results were similar as before. I only hit maybe ten shots, but there were some spin rates of 1,000 or so. I then covered my door with the screen and hit 15 more shots and the results were good. The massive drop offs were no longer present. I then hit a three hybrid, all good and then a handful of drivers which also were good.

There is more testing to do, but as of right now the metal screen experiment seems to be successful. I will post more updates as I work through this. Hopefully I can get FlightScope some raw data and they can confirm a reduction in the interference.

I just wanted to share my experience.

[Tom919]

Do you happen to have a link of what you bought and put on your garage door? Do you think its possible for this to remain on your door when you retract it up and down when putting your car in?

[Tom919]

Something like this?

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/phifer-fiberglass-screen-20x20-mesh-charcoal-36-inch-x25-feet/1001034545

[GLP]

I may be having the same problem with my Mevo Plus. Willing to try whatever will work. How big did the screen have to be? Assume this only needs applied to the door directly perpendicular to the radar. Maybe a 4' x 4' or 6' x 6' square? The further edges should be at sufficient angle to the unit that they would bounce the wave away from the unit, rather than straight back at it.

[Woosie]

cmj_golf Thank you for sharing your experiences. I don't understand how the mesh fixes the problem though, since it should have similar reflective characteristics as the garage door. Think about the metal mesh on the glass door of a microwave oven: it is designed to reflect the microwaves as effectively as the metal walls of the oven

Your experience is intriguing!

[Dax]

I have a FlightScope Xi-Tour set up in my garage. I have 8 feet from radar to ball and 9’ 10” from ball to screen. Originally, I wanted to set this up so I can hit towards the garage door. I was experiencing a failure rate of 40% - 80% in spin rate calculations. As an example an 8 iron would normally spin around 7,500 and then read around 1,000. The driver bad reads would be the inverse. Going from 2,200 to 4,600 or so. I worked closely with FlightScope and they confirmed there was interference. I turned my set up to hit away from the door and all has been well for over a year.

Well, I wanted to revisit this since I am looking to upgrade my screen and mat. A suggestion I received from FlightScope was to use metal mesh screen. This is common to reduce the effects of fans and fluorescent lights. So, I recently was in Home Depot and picked up aluminum metal screen. I set up my FlightScope facing the garage door and hit some 8 irons without the screening in place, just to check one more time and remove any doubt that some other variable is playing a factor. I was also sure to set up exactly 8’ from radar to ball and 9’10” from ball to screen. The results were similar as before. I only hit maybe ten shots, but there were some spin rates of 1,000 or so. I then covered my door with the screen and hit 15 more shots and the results were good. The massive drop offs were no longer present. I then hit a three hybrid, all good and then a handful of drivers which also were good.

There is more testing to do, but as of right now the metal screen experiment seems to be successful. I will post more updates as I work through this. Hopefully I can get FlightScope some raw data and they can confirm a reduction in the interference.

I just wanted to share my experience.

This is very interesting! thank you for sharing!

[Woosie]

Thinking some more about this...

I believe the microwaves generated by the Mevo+ have a wavelength of about 12mm. A metal mesh with gaps in the few mm range will diffract, rather than reflect, the waves. This may be sufficient to reduce the reflections from the garage door to a level that allows the Mevo+ to more easily detect the signal from the ball.

[pwade3]

Does anyone know if having the projector in a wooden box instead of it hanging from a ceiling mount would help disrupt the fan enough to remove the effects?

[Dax]

pwade3 Not sure, but how tall is your ceiling height and how far from the radar will your projector b? You could always ask flightscope?

[pwade3]

My ceiling is 9’ 4”. My projector is 9’ from screen. Mevo+ will be about 10 feet behind the projector. I can make it closer or further away. I was going to test ball flight from 12ft and move it closer to see if accuracy is compromised. Then I read this section and realized I might have another issue. Lol.

[pwade3]

Dax Also, fluorescent lighting is supposed to have an effect on radar. Are we talking about it being in close proximity of the radar field, or will fluorescent lighting, say a bay or two over have an effect?

[Dax]

pwade3 i am not sure the effect of the lighting, but have avoided it altogether anywhere near my TM. As for the projector, I have reported here before where I have my projector sitting hanging at about 8 or so feet high caused interference with my radar when it was about 8 or 9 feet I. Front of my radar. When I moved it up closer to 8’8” or so I had no issues. It was one of my postings in the last month when I shared the measurements that I took. I would likely ask FS for their views as I would had someone taking chances based on my experience with a different unit. I just want people to be aware of some issues I had faced when setting up my sim 2.0 build.

[pwade3]

Thanks for the advice and info again Dax. Very much appreciated. I will go looking for your other posting.

[Dax]

Sorry one more point. If you can get the 12 feet and still get good club data, then I would go for the 12 feet.

[Dax]

I am not sure on what the hitting area of Mevo+ is as they seem to be pretty clear on putting unit 8 feet behind for indoor. Also for regular indoor I think they say 13 feet and then less than this is short mode. I’d say the Mevo+ can pick up reads at 9 feet from radar you could hit wedges at o feet from radar (12 feet from screen)and your drives etc at 8 feet from radar. I would also suggest protecting your ceiling as well as my ceiling is about 9’2” and at 12 feet I can hit a 58 wedge into my ceiling netting.

[pwade3]

ya, I have a well protected sim, including the ceiling. Somehow my wife managed to miss the ceiling curtain with a driver!!!!

[Dax]

Ouch, not just the ceiling but also the top of the driver