Why would I need Face to Path information?

[Ryan_luan@yahoo.com]

SkyTrak has Side Spin and Side Angle. As I understand, the side spin is directly related to Swing Path and Club Face difference. If it is a number to the left, it means a draw path, i.e., the swing path is more right than the club face. So I have all I need to diagnose my swing. Why do people still talk about club data and the "missing" Face to Path data in SkyTrak? What do I miss?

[sdrthedj]

The question to that is, how do you know what to work on?

If your swing is coming straight down the line to target, and hitting a draw, than squaring the club face is needed.
If you are swinging from the inside, than you need to work on getting you swing more down the line in addition to work needed to square the club face.

Ball data tells a big part of the story, but not all of it. Does it matter that much? For most people, probably not. The average golfer isn't going to truly understand what steps are needed to fix the problem.

If I had club data, and no coach to help me analyze it I would probably end up like Charles Barkley.

[andygg1986]

Ball data also doesn't tell you where on the clubface you hit the ball. If you swing with a square face straight down the line but hit it off the toe, you are going to see a draw. You might start making path and face adjustments when really you just need to make more solid contact. Clubhead speed is needed for smash factor if you are interested in maximizing your yardage for swing speed. In theory angle of attack can be calculated from club loft and backspin, but again hitting it thin or high on the clubface will affect backspin numbers.

I think that good golf instructors use club data as a way to show that their recommended swing change is having a measurable positive effect. When I get a lesson my shots usually get worse for a little while while I adjust, but if I can seen that my swing path is straighter or clubface is more square, I'm going to buy into the change. Chasing launch monitor numbers blindly is a good way to end up like Charles Barkley as sdrthedj said above.

[BGCurtis2nd]

The picture show ball flight due to Club face and Club path relation, having that information shows you what you should see in ball flight due to that combination alone, but there are other factors that can be involved to give variations of the ball flight. I am one who digs deep into data to understand what is causing what, I know that there are those who say they don't want to much information but I have always been one to want as much as I can get. There is a lot of preferences on ball and club data, and who want to see what they have and who just pretty much only care about what the ball does. It all boils down to if you understand the information and know how to use it, it can be very helpful, if not it can be very confusing.

[FaultyClubs]

This chart shows the "old ball flight" rules which were formulated before anyone could see what the club was actually doing and have been proven incorrect. They will never correlate with LM data.

Modern rules are based on a 3 dimensional model known as the D plane which includes attack angle, dynamic loft, spin lift etc. The 2 dimensional projection of that model onto a flat horizontal surface gives rise to the new rule that the ball direction follows the club face angle. Although when one does the projection for the range of clubs one can see the face angle weighting varies from somewhere in the 60s to 90s as a percent of total contribution. A driver may be around 85% face angle but the path is still a significant contributor for a wedge. The fact it varies with club is of course part of the new rules as well although people often simplify it to one number.

[Ryan_luan@yahoo.com]

If your swing is coming straight down the line to target, and hitting a draw, than squaring the club face is needed.

But SkyTrak "Side Angle" == "Club Face", right? So if "Side Angle" is 2 degree to the right, it means that the club face is not square; it is 2 degree to the right instead.

[Ryan_luan@yahoo.com]

Ball data also doesn't tell you where on the clubface you hit the ball. If you swing with a square face straight down the line but hit it off the toe, you are going to see a draw.

It is a good point. I have relied on my "feel" (when you hit on the toe, most time you know it), and sometimes a impact label, to detect toe/heel/top/bottom hit.

[sdrthedj]

But SkyTrak "Side Angle" == "Club Face", right? So if "Side Angle" is 2 degree to the right, it means that the club face is not square; it is 2 degree to the right instead.

That is not always true. Your path can be coming outside in at 5 degrees left and have the club closed 2 degrees at impact and hit a fade.
If you come from the inside, the path can be 5 degrees right, and clubface open 3 degrees and hit a draw.

[bennyg211]

Agreed, face to path, path and strike are ridiculously important. Probably the most important pieces of club data out of any.

[Ronsc1985]

That is not always true. Your path can be coming outside in at 5 degrees left and have the club closed 2 degrees at impact and hit a fade.
If you come from the inside, the path can be 5 degrees right, and clubface open 3 degrees and hit a draw.

What you say is only true if what you are measuring is face angle to target. LM's like a GC2 HMT measure face to path which is really what you are interested in. To make corrections to your swing you first correct path to target and then adjust face to path to produce a draw or fade.

[jut111]

But SkyTrak "Side Angle" == "Club Face", right? So if "Side Angle" is 2 degree to the right, it means that the club face is not square; it is 2 degree to the right instead.

Not quite that simple. Face angle has the greatest impact on start line (side angle) but path plays a part as well. Path plays a larger and larger part the more loft you have a impact.

[bennyg211]

Typically face angle >3/4 of the variable influencing starting line.

[jut111]

I could quibble with your numbers a bit and say 3/4 is more the high end then typical but I generally agree.

[Ryan_luan@yahoo.com]

Thanks for the discussion. My head is spinning a bit Since SkyTrak does not have face to path and club data, and there is no "easy and reliable" add-on to provide this, I will have to stick to ball data plus some reasonable guess of impact position to guide my practice for now.

[FaultyClubs]

Guessing on impact location can lead to big errors. Trackman data shows being off center (heel or toe) by only one "dimple" can tilt the spin axis 6 degrees on a driver. Trackman data also shows pros can be off by 1 or 2 dimples and even three. Being only half inch off can tilt the spin axis 20 degrees meaning 35yds offline on a 250 yd drive given a square path/face angle shot. You'll probably miss the fairway and blame club path or face angle but really you just miss hit it. If one were back-calculating the club data from measured ball spin that would create a 6 degree error in club path/angle estimates. Far too much to be actionable IMO.

Impact position matters for distance and curvature.. Better to measure than guess. One could use a $6000 HMT or $2 foot spray with equal accuracy.

Having said that manufactures are always trying to reduce this effect (face bulge, moment of inertia etc) so your actual driver may be different. Especially if you can fiddle with weights etc.

[BGCurtis2nd]

I use a lot of these, so I don't have to worry about stuff being transferred to impact screen with them. Doesn't help with club path or face angle but helps with impact point.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Golf-Impact-Tape-Golf-Club-Face-Tape-Golf-Club-Labels-Improve-Ball-Striking/261412809109?hash=item3cdd6ae995:m:mFaIfiTIICqPULnAz_c5Ufg

[Mirek_62]

BGCurtis2nd - no need to buy overpriced "special" labels. The same service will provide thermal labels in the role of, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blank-White-Self-Adhesive-Stickers-Shipping-Printer-Label-Rolls-Address-Labels/232369468778?hash=item361a4cb56a:m:mhNc-pBQwBLX-HQsuFkkK4A