Just a bit dissapointed -- Sim Golf will never be "real"

[GMR]

Hi All,

So after having wanted a golf sim for a very long time now, I finally took the plunge and bought a skytrak a couple weeks back. I used to play regularly in an indoor league on AboutGolf simulators so I was pretty familiar with all the positives and negatives of simulator golf, and was very excited about using the Skytrak to improve my game. I aologise if this comes across as overly negative, as that's not really my intent, but despite being very familiar with indoor golf I've discovered something that I wish I had known before I bought my setup. Not that I wouldn't have done exactly the same, but I just feel like I didn't have the full picture before making the plunge.

So the first thing I will say is I'm actually very impressed by the unit itself. For the cost, I think that the data I'm getting out of it is of extremely high quality. I will happily say that it is absolutely hands-down an improvement on the AboutGolf monitor. First of all the flexibility to use your own balls--and get reasonably accurate spin data doing so--is HUGE, as the AboutGolf makes you use these ridiculous marked balls that don't really spin and, as I found out, are actually lighter than real balls and are therefore subject to crack while using them... Also I think to compensate to the non-real balls, the ball flight model in the AboutGolf is really wonky and would always give me very unrealistic ball trajectories, even if the eventual carry distance was somewhere near correct.

With the Skytrak I really don't doubt the veracity of the data I'm getting at all. Ball speeds, trajectories, mishits--everything seems on point. I'm punished for bad shots and good shots go just about how I'd expect them to. Just about.

So last night I decided to really dig into my numbers and see how I stacked up. Fortunately, my ball speeds are actually pretty much in line with the PGA tour average, so it's a pretty apples-to-apples comparison vs the published Trackman charts showing tour averages by club. Going through my #s club by club, I was pleasantly surprised to see things pretty much in line in terms of ball speeds, but the two numbers that jumped out to me were 1) launch angle and 2) spin rate.

For every club I hit, my launch angle was consistently 2-3* higher than the tour average. Interesting, I thought, but hey I can buy it because we know a number of those guys use a lot of shaft lean to really deloft the clubs and hit them further. But wait...why are my carry distances then actually slightly FURTHER than theirs (e.g. 7i: 180yds vs 172yds, 5i: 204yds vs 194yds, 3h: 231yds vs 225yds)? This is in the standard Skytrak range with altitude set to 0 and no silly boosts on, and ball speeds pretty much in line, so shouldn't be any funky business with the calculations.

Then I noticed the spin. A good 750-1,500 lower than tour average with every club. Before you ask this is using virutually brand new premium balls (Srixon Z Star). OK well I play clubs with shafts that are really stiff--almost on the border of being too stiff for me--so it would make sense that I might have lower spin numbers. But unless I'm just very shallow into the ball (which I never have been) those launch angles and those spin numbers just weren't adding up. If you add to that that I tend to be a low-mid trajectory guy on the course, and these numbers would imply I'm hitting high flat moonballs (110ft peak height roughly according to the flightscope trajectory optimiser), something just wasn't right.

That's when I found this article: https://blog.trackmangolf.com/mats-v...ts-difference/

Turns out the numbers I'm getting from the Skytrak are most likely, as I imagined, on point. Wouldn't have mattered if I had bought a GC2, Trackman, or any other contraption that measures ball data... The numbers were wrong because the ball flight was wrong, because I was hitting off a mat instead of grass. Basically every time I hit the ball off my Fiberbuilt mat, it's as if I'm hitting from a flyer lie in the rough. Which is great if you want to practice hitting from flyer lies, but not so great if you want to get a precise view on your "stock" distances and ballflight from the fairway.

So that's really it. I know it's a bit nitpicky, but I was really excited to really dial in my distances using my real clubs and my real balls all winter in my newly built mancave. And while the Skytrak will still provide me some great feedback and will still be tons of fun to play with, that level of precision that I was hoping for in terms of "real" data just isn't going to happen, which makes me just a little bit sad.

Thanks if you managed to make it this far, and will welcome your feedback.

[theizer]

I think the last remark at the bottom of the article nails it. Whether you are consciously doing it or not, you are likely making adjustments due to hitting off a mat. It's just not the same as real turf no matter what. I'm sure some mats are better than others and closer to the real thing. It would be great to see a study done on that which eliminates the human aspect. I am still building out my simulator (GC2 based) and am really excited for it. I know my numbers wont reflect exactly when I go to the course, but grooving my swing and timing throughout the winter months ought to make a big difference next spring...plus it's just fun.

[GMR]

I think the last remark at the bottom of the article nails it. Whether you are consciously doing it or not, you are likely making adjustments due to hitting off a mat. It's just not the same as real turf no matter what. I'm sure some mats are better than others and closer to the real thing. It would be great to see a study done on that which eliminates the human aspect. I am still building out my simulator (GC2 based) and am really excited for it. I know my numbers wont reflect exactly when I go to the course, but grooving my swing and timing throughout the winter months ought to make a big difference next spring...plus it's just fun.

Yeah that's really the right mindset, I just wish someone had pointed me to that article before my expectations got so high. I felt like I went top-of-the-line with the Fiberbuilt setup, but that's about all you can do. Honestly if I could make my swing do whatever it is to produce the type launch and spin numbers I'm getting I'd take that outdoors all day long, but I'm pretty sure that's not possible. All I can hope is that it doesn't groove bad habits, and enjoy getting an extra club of distance when playing with the sim I suppose...

Won't make it any less fun, just less real.

[DFDubb]

Are you ever outside on the course standing over a shot thinking about how many rpm's of spin you want to put on the ball? The exact degree of launch angle? If you are, more power to you. Me personally I'm thinking more about the shot shape I want to put on the ball given the lie that the course dealt me. I use the GC2 for very little more than trying to reproduce the various shot shapes that I'm practicing. The fact that you have a perfect lie every shot makes SIM golf more like a video game than real golf, but that doesn't mean that it can't be an invaluable practice tool. Between putting and the perfect lie, I've never felt that SIM golf is even close to being the same thing as real golf, even if you could get dead accurate numbers and grow real turf in your room to hit off of.

[inorkuo]

according to fiberbuilt, the ball spins off of their mat just like it does off of grass but it launches higher. a "conventional turf mat" spins less and launches even higher.

http://www.fiberbuilt.com/golf/fiberbuilt-r-d-2/

[Snaphook]

This is the main reason i got the truestrike mat. I did some research into this area and it seems like the truestrike and the divotaction are the closest you can get to real grass numbers.
I would also recommend you get a higher spinning ball for your sim setup. You can get up to 1000 rpms more on irons with a different ball depending on the ball you use outside. What ball do you use outdoors?

[GMR]

Are you ever outside on the course standing over a shot thinking about how many rpm's of spin you want to put on the ball? The exact degree of launch angle? If you are, more power to you. Me personally I'm thinking more about the shot shape I want to put on the ball given the lie that the course dealt me. I use the GC2 for very little more than trying to reproduce the various shot shapes that I'm practicing. The fact that you have a perfect lie every shot makes SIM golf more like a video game than real golf, but that doesn't mean that it can't be an invaluable practice tool. Between putting and the perfect lie, I've never felt that SIM golf is even close to being the same thing as real golf, even if you could get dead accurate numbers and grow real turf in your room to hit off of.

The point is not that I care about the launch or the spin, it's that the trajectory of the ball and the carry distance are calculated using those numbers. I certainly believe it can be an invaluable practice tool, but due this this shortfall it will never be great at certain things--honing my distances with my long irons, for example (since they carry a full club longer due to the launch characteristics).

[GMR]

according to fiberbuilt, the ball spins off of their mat just like it does off of grass but it launches higher. a "conventional turf mat" spins less and launches even higher.

http://www.fiberbuilt.com/golf/fiberbuilt-r-d-2/

That is actually very interesting, thanks for posting. I am probably on the lower end of spin for my club speed, but I still think the numbers it's throwing out at me are somewhere in the 500-1000rpm off on the low side (e.g. 4200rpm backspin from a 5-iron and 5900rpm backspin from a 7-iron with 135mph and 125mph ball speeds, respectively), but maybe I just hit my irons with really low spin...

On another note, how is it possible for a mat to independently affect launch angle? My understanding was that on a clean strike the club makes contact with the ball before any sort of ground interaction, and the ball does not "compress" into the ground as used to be commonly believed. Anyone have any thoughts?

[GMR]

This is the main reason i got the truestrike mat. I did some research into this area and it seems like the truestrike and the divotaction are the closest you can get to real grass numbers.
I would also recommend you get a higher spinning ball for your sim setup. You can get up to 1000 rpms more on irons with a different ball depending on the ball you use outside. What ball do you use outdoors?

Maybe I should have gone with another mat after all. I did a ton of research and felt I was getting the best out there, but maybe in retrospect more people were commenting regarding durability and injury prevention than close scrutiny to the numbers vs. real grass.

Outdoors I use the Srixon Z-Star Tour Yellow. Have been using the same ball on the sim and find that the Skytrak actually seems to pick up very good ball data from it, probably because it has a very reflective, almost shiny, outer cover. The higher-spin ball might help, but if the launch angle is still incorrect I'm not sure if it's really going to make the problem any better...

What kind of ball would you recommend as a suitable replacement that will spin a bit more off the irons?

Obviously anything I hit from a tee shouldn't be affected, so should be fine to keep using my outdoor ball with driver. I'm also really hoping that finesse wedge shots are short enough where the carry distances wouldn't be off more than a couple yards, but maybe that's wishful thinking...

[GMR]

Just thinking about this a bit more, the Fiberbuilt mat HAS to be decreasing the spin rate. If we assume that it's measuring ball speed correctly--and in all the threads on this forum I've yet to hear someone complain that measured ball speed was TOO HIGH--we know that the unit's most accurate measurement is the vertical launch. So fiberbuilt claims their mats increase launch angle by on average 12%...

Taking as an example the attached photo of a 5i (a club that I carry about 190-195 outside), if we take the launch conditions of 135 ball speed and 4188 spin and throw that into the flightscope trajectory optimizer, you get a pretty similar carry distance around 210, but the interesting thing is if you change the launch angle from 15* to 13.5* or even 13.0*, you get almost zero impact to the estimated carry distance. It's not until launch is racheted down below about 11* that you start to get carry distance to move in any significant way.

Given that I can count on one hand the number of 5i's I've ever carried over 200 yards outside--and none sniffing anywhere near 210--there are three explanations I can think of: 1) it's an indoor/outdoor swing effect where unlike 95% of the posters on this forum my indoor swing is actually BETTER than my outdoor swing (improbable but possible I suppose) or 2) the unit is struggling to get good readings on ball speed (unlikely) and/or launch angle (very unlikely) and/or ball spin (most likely) or 3) the mat is causing the ball to come off with significantly reduced spin, which when combined with the increased launch is leading to boosted carry distances.

[inorkuo]

people don't usually complain when the sim says you're a beast, but when the sim says that you're a sissy...

[GMR]

That's a good point--maybe we just hear about too-low ball speeds more than too-high ball speeds. But that being said, in pretty much every case it's proven to be false anyway, and just a factor of indoor/outdoor or someone who hits it fat trying to hit off a CCE. I've had my fair share of brutally low ball speeds on mishits to have faith that my unit is pretty accurate though. I also think that if I were a lower-speed player who carries 7i 140yds, I probably wouldn't have ever even noticed that my numbers are a bit too high, but it's just really exaggerated on long irons hit off the turf when they are carrying 15 yards past where you'd expect to see them outside.

[BWJones]

I will jump in and say I recently switched from a very hard hitting mat to a TrueStrike and love it. I was hesitant because of the price, but I am not very glad I switched. I cannot tell you specific differences in spin rates and launch angles, but I can tell you I can now hit a wood from the turf with no distance punishment. I also have no pain when playing for long periods of time. I also love how the mat feels hitting irons from this mat.

[GMR]

Yeah the fiberbuilt is good in that regard as well and is a big component of why I bought it--can get aggressive down through the ball without having to worry about hurting elbows and wrists, and no distance punishment at all... the issue is actually the opposite!!!

[gene438]

Obviously the amount of impact a mat has is going to be dependent on the level of golfer. I will say this....The greatest impact on my game from using my simulator has been my ball striking. For those that have gone and seen the pros play live, you will all attest to the fact that they all make the same sound when striking the ball. The sound from hitting the ball pure meaning to hit the ball first and then taking a small or very shallow divot.....The "ping" sound vs. the "dud" sound of hitting the ground first or at the same time as the ball.

This may sound fundamental, but, hitting thousands of shots from my ProTee fiberbuilt mat has helped me develop a much shallower divot and thus a more pure strike which has improved my distance, consistency, and accuracy. I played 2 rounds this week in real life and my ball striking was just fantastic...it makes the game so much more enjoyable. I'm putting for birdie much more often, and with better chipping and putting, I'm now shooting high 70's vs mid 80's.

So, in my situation and my level, I believe hitting off a mat has helped my ball striking. I think the fiberbuilt is a great balance in that a fat shot will still come off as a fat shot but you have enough cushion to give wrist and elbow protection.

[Mike90210]

This is the main reason i got the truestrike mat. I did some research into this area and it seems like the truestrike and the divotaction are the closest you can get to real grass numbers.
I would also recommend you get a higher spinning ball for your sim setup. You can get up to 1000 rpms more on irons with a different ball depending on the ball you use outside. What ball do you use outdoors?

https://proputtsystems.com/which-true-strike-do-i-need/ - Interesting that you say the Truestrike gives you the best data compared to real turf. In the linked example they only show their mat vs a turf mat...

I would be interested to see turf vs Fiberbuilt vs Truestrike vs Divot action. If anybody has all three of these mats and would do some non biased testing that would be really cool

[inorkuo]

that would be very interesting. let's say someone had access to all of the different hitting mats. how would you test hitting off of turf? if you go to the range you're hitting crappy range balls that have no consistency from one to the next. you'd almost have to go to the range with a net and your own balls and all of the different hitting mats.

[Snaphook]

I would really like to see a test like this done. I have taken my gc2 over to a friends indoor sim center and hitting of his mats i can say the spin is definitely lower than my truestrike.
I have a CCE strip with a hitting cage in my backyard (i like to hit outdoors in good weather) and it shows lower spin rates than the truestrike.
The truestrike is still showing less spin than real dry turf so maybe there is something even better out there?

[Snaphook]

Maybe I should have gone with another mat after all. I did a ton of research and felt I was getting the best out there, but maybe in retrospect more people were commenting regarding durability and injury prevention than close scrutiny to the numbers vs. real grass.

Outdoors I use the Srixon Z-Star Tour Yellow. Have been using the same ball on the sim and find that the Skytrak actually seems to pick up very good ball data from it, probably because it has a very reflective, almost shiny, outer cover. The higher-spin ball might help, but if the launch angle is still incorrect I'm not sure if it's really going to make the problem any better...

What kind of ball would you recommend as a suitable replacement that will spin a bit more off the irons?

Obviously anything I hit from a tee shouldn't be affected, so should be fine to keep using my outdoor ball with driver. I'm also really hoping that finesse wedge shots are short enough where the carry distances wouldn't be off more than a couple yards, but maybe that's wishful thinking...

I don't know how "spinny" the z-star is? I use a Nassau quattro indoors (same as org Kirkland signature). Might be hard to find? You should test the chrome soft X/ proV1X and see if you can spot a difference? I have also read that the Volvik S4 has high spin, but have never seen one irl.
I think the best thing would be to play a low spin ball outdoors and use a higher spinning indoors to get as close as possible. Like Chrome soft outdoors and their X model indoors etc