Handicap Index and *** Optishot Tour

[HWoods]

Great stuff guys! Looking forward to the new system.

Question: Does it calculate based on a certain amount of rounds, and then continue to adjust and calculate as new rounds are played and old rounds are dropped off the list for calculating? This is how my summer league does it and works great. Also my league drops out the highest and lowest score. This way you can't skew your average with 1 great or 1 really bad round. Gets a better average this way.

Just curious on how the system works. Thanks!

Here's a general overview:

-New members start off at a 0 index (in your league catman may choose a different starting index)
-You must get 6 complete rounds in before the automatic system will generate an index.
-Your league admin can manually change any index of any player who has not played a min of 8 total league rounds. This includes all seasons. It's up to the league admin to keep the index low enough until a real index can be automatically calculated. This protects the field. Usually that takes 8-10 rounds depending on the player.
-Once a player has 8 total rounds in, none of the league administrators can change the index.
- When a player has a minimum of 8 total rounds, the system takes the best 4 out last of 8 or; the best 4 out of last 9 or; the best 5 out of the last 10 rounds if the player has 10 rounds in.
-The system uses course slope/rating to determine each player's handicap for tournaments. So you may be a 9 on your profile but if you play a really hard course, or a really easy course, your index for the actual tournament that week may differ.
-ESC is now used on all league golf holes. I wont go into too much detail but basically all 9 handicaps or lower can not make more than a double bogey, for handicap purposes ONLY. All rounds that are in our system have been computed and a new total score with ESC included has been calculated. This helps remove blow up holes which are not reflective of ones ability, which is the purpose of the handicap.

If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask. We are always looking to try and change things for the better.

[Mike80]

HoganWoods, thanks for the detailed explanation. This system sounds great! Also agree about it not allowing more than a double bogey for including as part of the handicap. That eliminates blow up holes effecting and inflating handicaps. I'm looking forward to Season 2 using this new handicap system! Hopefully our scores look a little closer to the ProTee leader board and not crazy low like before

[MatalaWedge]

This looks great!. Thanks for the update.

[JohnMeyer]

Thats excellent, good work.

With new club settings and improved handicaps think we should see some very very tight leaderboards. 39 players on the 2015 leaderboard too, going to be a great season!

[JohnMeyer]

Hi all, just for a bit of fun i used the profile index's to alter the leaderboard for the Warwick Hills tournament and if we'd been playing of profile indexs for that tournament it wouldve finished as:

Pos	Rank	Index	Name	RD1	RD2	RD3	RD4	Total
1	4	-3	AurinCoynen	-5	2	1	*	-2
T2	1	-7	Vincent_Vega	-2	3	1	*	2
T2	2	-6	Catman	1	2	-1	*	2
T4	6	-4	Willymakit	3	5	-4	*	4
T4	12	3	MaleNurse	2	3	-1	*	4
6	3	-4	Maxxx	-1	2	4	*	5
7	T14	-4	MrHogan	0	10	-4	*	6
8	13	-5	Ian.Hoggard	-1	9	-1	*	7
9	16	4	psgolfer	3	7	-2	*	8
10	17	6	MaTru	5	9	-2	*	12
T11	T19	3	JohnMeyer	5	9	1	*	15
T11	5	-4	Braycobb	15	6	-6	*	15
T13	7	2	Mike80	4	11	1	*	16
T13	T19	3	Joe_S	-1	13	4	*	16
15	22	3	Duper37	5	15	2	*	22

Buckeye, your profile Index isnt working for some reason, maybe because your rank is showing as a *, dont know whats happened there but thats why you were removed from the leaderboard, as were the DNFs

Looks a bit more realistic I think youll agree,

[Maxxx]

Hey John, Your input ,analysis and details are always interesting to read.. please dont stop 👍I agree that the leaderboards will look more realistic. Great work and much appreciated Hogan woods , Catman and everyone behind the scenes.

cheers

cheers

Hi all, just for a bit of fun i used the profile index's to alter the leaderboard for the Warwick Hills tournament and if we'd been playing of profile indexs for that tournament it wouldve finished as:

Pos	Rank	Index	Name	RD1	RD2	RD3	RD4	Total
1	4	-3	AurinCoynen	-5	2	1	*	-2
T2	1	-7	Vincent_Vega	-2	3	1	*	2
T2	2	-6	Catman	1	2	-1	*	2
T4	6	-4	Willymakit	3	5	-4	*	4
T4	12	3	MaleNurse	2	3	-1	*	4
6	3	-4	Maxxx	-1	2	4	*	5
7	T14	-4	MrHogan	0	10	-4	*	6
8	13	-5	Ian.Hoggard	-1	9	-1	*	7
9	16	4	psgolfer	3	7	-2	*	8
10	17	6	MaTru	5	9	-2	*	12
T11	T19	3	JohnMeyer	5	9	1	*	15
T11	5	-4	Braycobb	15	6	-6	*	15
T13	7	2	Mike80	4	11	1	*	16
T13	T19	3	Joe_S	-1	13	4	*	16
15	22	3	Duper37	5	15	2	*	22

Buckeye, your profile Index isnt working for some reason, maybe because your rank is showing as a *, dont know whats happened there but thats why you were removed from the leaderboard, as were the DNFs

Looks a bit more realistic I think youll agree,

[JohnMeyer]

As i understand these new indexes we shouldnt be hitting them all the time really, they will always be average of our best 3 rounds, so a dip in form and youll struggle to get anywhere near it.

I guess from this its impossible for your handicap to go upwards, only lower if you hit a new top 3 score, and to score under par you would basically need to hit either better than or equal to one of your best 3 rounds of all time. (taking into account ESC) Thats if I understand it right

As Hoganwoods says, its not an average of your rounds, its the average of what you are capable of when at your best

[John D]

Same as a real handicap, once you go low enough times your cap doesn't go up, until next year maybe . That's why they use best 10 of 20 rounds, bigger range of data.

[John D]

Sorry meant to say until you have more than 20 rounds entered, then the 20 game window moves along as you play more rounds

[JohnMeyer]

Catman,

Just something to noet for future tournament,



These are the settings the website has down for this tournament.. not sure if you input them or they are automatic. Most I wouldnt have thought really matter, but one that Im sure does is the Tees setting

As this is set to Middle it gives the Slope and Ratings as above. these are what are used to calculate both our main adjusted scores for each round, which ultimately affects our overall handicap and the course specific handicap allocated for each tournament.

However we are playing back tees so should have actually been set to Back and then should have given a Slope 153 and Rating 79.2

From the information Tab, on the website actual round score as used for handicap adjustment is:

Player Round Index = (Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Course Slope

and calculation for Tournament specific handicap is

Course Handicap = Player Index x (Course Slope/120)


As you can see having the Slope and Rating on the website not set to the conditions we are actually playing could well have an effect on future handicap calcluations

Example

JM Round 1 Gross Score = 79

So Player Round Index would be

Middle Tees = (79 - 73.9) x 113/138 = +4 (76) score used in future handicap calculations

Back Tees = (79-79.2) x 113/153 = 0 (72) score used in future handicap calculations


However whats more interesting in its effect on Tournament handicaps, especially negative Handicaps, this is particular will need clarifying as will be wrong for negative handicaps

Examples

Vincent_Vega Pre Tournament Handicap = -7

Middle Tees = -7 x (138/120) = -8

Back Tees = -7 x (153/120) = - 9

THIS IS WRONG - A negative handicappers index should not be worse for a harder course, and not worse still for harder tees.

If however Vinny was a + 7 handicap pre tournament

Middle Tees = +7 x (138/120) = +8

Back Tees = +7 x (153/120) = +9

THIS IS CORRECT - Kiawah is a hard course and should result in an increase of handicap allowance, with the harder tees giving an extra shot.

If this is how handicaps are calculated the harder the course, the lower the handicap for a negative handicap player. This cant be right surely?

EDIT

Turns out this is unbelievably correct... Im guessing the USGA dont want people playing on below scratch handicaps!!

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...or_results.asp


EDIT 2

Having now done more reading on the subject than anyone else would ever want to I know get why the above is all correct and why Vinny playing an index of -7 below scratch should be punished on harder courses more. Its because hes a better golf so should find harder courses easier compared to a +7 above scratch golf, so indeed it is all correct. Slope is not difficulty!

If you want your brain melted then read post #43 on this page... or dont, save your brain, and just accept that the system we use is correct !

http://thesandtrap.com/t/8856/problem-with-handicap-system/36

SO.....

1. Catman - I think you need to make sure that tournament conditions are set correctly on the website or handicaps wont calculate correctly due to incorrect slope and rating

2. Hoganwoods, I know it must be as youve been doing this longer than us, but is the above correct. Im guessing the calculations when designed did not include a provision when using negative handicaps, and if this is how it works it seems very harsh on negative index players. It is harsh on negative below scratch players, but deservedly so as theyre so good and find difficualt courses easier.. according to the USGA

[CatMan]

Catman,

Just something to noet for future tournament,

[ATTACH]n28575[/ATTACH]

These are the settings the website has down for this tournament.. not sure if you input them or they are automatic. Most I wouldnt have thought really matter, but one that Im sure does is the Tees setting

As this is set to Middle it gives the Slope and Ratings as above. these are what are used to calculate both our main adjusted scores for each round, which ultimately affects our overall handicap and the course specific handicap allocated for each tournament.

However we are playing back tees so should have actually been set to Back and then should have given a Slope 153 and Rating 79.2

From the information Tab, on the website actual round score as used for handicap adjustment is:

Player Round Index = (Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Course Slope

and calculation for Tournament specific handicap is

Course Handicap = Player Index x (Course Slope/120)


As you can see having the Slope and Rating on the website not set to the conditions we are actually playing could well have an effect on future handicap calcluations

Example

JM Round 1 Gross Score = 79

So Player Round Index would be

Middle Tees = (79 - 73.9) x 113/138 = +4 (76) score used in future handicap calculations

Back Tees = (79-79.2) x 113/153 = 0 (72) score used in future handicap calculations


However whats more interesting in its effect on Tournament handicaps, especially negative Handicaps, this is particular will need clarifying as will be wrong for negative handicaps

Examples

Vincent_Vega Pre Tournament Handicap = -7

Middle Tees = -7 x (138/120) = -8

Back Tees = -7 x (153/120) = - 9

THIS IS WRONG - A negative handicappers index should not be worse for a harder course, and not worse still for harder tees.

If however Vinny was a + 7 handicap pre tournament

Middle Tees = +7 x (138/120) = +8

Back Tees = +7 x (153/120) = +9

THIS IS CORRECT - Kiawah is a hard course and should result in an increase of handicap allowance, with the harder tees giving an extra shot.

If this is how handicaps are calculated the harder the course, the lower the handicap for a negative handicap player. This cant be right surely?

EDIT

Turns out this is unbelievably correct... Im guessing the USGA dont want people playing on below scratch handicaps!!

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...or_results.asp


EDIT 2

Having now done more reading on the subject than anyone else would ever want to I know get why the above is all correct and why Vinny playing an index of -7 below scratch should be punished on harder courses more. Its because hes a better golf so should find harder courses easier compared to a +7 above scratch golf, so indeed it is all correct. Slope is not difficulty!

If you want your brain melted then read post #43 on this page... or dont, save your brain, and just accept that the system we use is correct !

http://thesandtrap.com/t/8856/proble...icap-system/36



SO.....

1. Catman - I think you need to make sure that tournament conditions are set correctly on the website or handicaps wont calculate correctly due to incorrect slope and rating

2. Hoganwoods, I know it must be as youve been doing this longer than us, but is the above correct. Im guessing the calculations when designed did not include a provision when using negative handicaps, and if this is how it works it seems very harsh on negative index players. It is harsh on negative below scratch players, but deservedly so as theyre so good and find difficualt courses easier.. according to the USGA

That some good work John,

Our league does not take into consideration slope of Course and handicap index, for some reason this tournament was set on system generated handicaps which accounted for the Lower Index Players actually getting a lower handicap and the higher Handicap players get a higher index, my apologies to the lower Index Players.. My guess is when they made the updates to the Handicap System this got engaged. This won't happen again...

I wanted to go back and fix it but it a pain in the butt once the Tournament Starts.. We Use the Handicap System in place only to get a base line, this is the only use for it in our league.. We use Auto Create with system Disengaged, this does not take into account the Course...

I'm actually thinking about discussing with board to move away from system and going back to a weighted cap based on averages...

[JohnMeyer]

I like the use of negative handicaps think it makes the leaderboard look better, just dont like the course thing, I know its USGA rules but I think its far eaiser on her to get a negative HC than in real life.

I think you could leave us on the auto system for base and just leave it at that and would be fine. how the base is calculated is fine, ie the best 4 of last 8, best 5 of last 10 etc, and if thats done automatically then i think thats all fine. Just dont think the the slope adjustment is fair to negative index players.

Whichever system used as long as its a fixed system, not open to opinion or feeling then will be fine, so the auto without course handicap adjustment should be good. Also like the ESC thing, ie not having blowouts effect the score.

Here in UK we use the R&A system, which also complex in its simplest form is pretty easy to calculate, it ignores slope and uses just Rating (Standard Scratch Score in UK)

Heres a brief rundown, personally think its a simpler system but there ya go.


How your golf handicap is adjusted ongoing

Golf handicaps are divided into 5 categories as shown here, each of these categories has a respective buffer zone that is used to assess whether or not a handicap should change. The table below displays the categories along with relevant Adjustment Factors.

Category 1	Golf Handicaps of 5 or less	Buffer Zone = 0 to 1 shot	Adjustment factor = 0.1
Category 2	Golf Handicaps of 6 to 12 inclusive	Buffer Zone = 0 to 2 shots	Adjustment factor = 0.2
Category 3	Golf Handicaps of 13 to 20 inclusive	Buffer Zone = 0 to 3 shots	Adjustment factor = 0.3
Category 4	Golf Handicaps of 21 to 28 inclusive	Buffer Zone = 0 to 4 shots	Adjustment factor = 0.4
Category 5	Golf Handicaps of 29 to 36 inclusive	Buffer Zone = 0 to 5 shots	Adjustment factor = 0.5

Examples of adjustments:
Lets assume that your golf handicap is 17.0 (Cat 3) and the card that you entered was with a gross score of 87 and the SSS (Rating) for the tee colour is 67, in this case your net score would be 3 shots (87 – 67 = 20) above your handicap . As your Buffer Zone allows you to be between 0 and 3 Shots above your handicap (17 + 3) then no adjustment is made. If your gross score was 89 resulting in your net score being 2 shots higher than your Buffer Zone, then your handicap would increase by 0.1, which is the Maximum increase allowed. However, if your gross score was 82 with course SSS of 67 resulting in your net score being 2 shots below your handicap (82 – 67 = 15) Then your are below the Buffer Zone of zero so an adjustment is required. The adjustment would be the number of shots below handicap x the Adjustment Factor i.e. 2 x 0.3 resulting in a cut of 0.6 shots. Your new Exact Handicap would now Be 17.0 – 0.6 = 16.4 giving you a Playing Handicap of 16.


As youll see you will then always play off your standard index, this is just how it calculates how your next tournament index (base index) is calculated.

[CatMan]

John this is all good stuff,

Unfortunately as much as we want to make Optishot like real golf, the system just lacks in to many areas, to use a Standardize Handicap System.. That is why we use the Current system we have to give a base line....

If we had a more accurate simulator that actually tracks the Ball and Launch Angle...., better ball physics now we are talking business with slope and course index.... But the current software in my opinion does not give and advantage or disadvantage to a stronger golfer playing from back tees....

thanks for your insight with handicap index,

[JohnMeyer]

Yeah I agree completely, the use of slope etc to give indvidual tournament HC is not required.

As you rightly say just using the moving average ( 5 out of last 10 etc), taking into account ESC for the "blowout" holes, I think will give a pretty good guide of where we all play.

I agree that using back tees doesn't make it harder/easier for the stronger golfer, it makes it harder for everyone and so if a player scores well it should be reflected more so in his handicap, or scores porrly should be reflected less so.

The auto system that is currently used does use slope and rating to calculate the scores that are averaged doesnt it?,

ie Player Round Score = (Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Course Slope


If this is correct and the auto system uses the above just need to make sure that the course/rating on the website reflects what were playing.

As per my example above I shot 79, but using the above system with the slope/rating on website the auto system will allocate a score of 76 for my handicap calculation

However as we used back tees slope and rating should've have been 153/79.7 and so my score used for handicap calculation should have been 72.

This will ensure those who shot more than their handicap are not overly penalised as the course was harder, and equally thise that shot low have their handicap reduced.

As you can see my 79 should actually bring my handicap down, as it was in effect a 72 (-1 on my 1 index) from the back tees, but as it stands it will in effect give me a 76 (+3 on 1 my 1 index) , so put my handicap up.


If the auto system is to be used for the Baseline (profile) index we just need to make sure that the slope/rating the system uses, to calculate the round scores which in turn are then averaged, are the correct ones for the round we played.

For the next tournament at The National Golf Club Scottsdale, as you can see Slope/rating is different for back tees instead of middle, so ****************** website needs to reflect this.

[CatMan]

Thanks John,

That's the scorecard I used to get the Slope and Rating.. It was tough to find lol...

But yes the baseline is the average cap that is taking into consideration of rounds Played, it works the same as when the system enabled, but does not take into account the slope and rating... When the system is disabled it does not take into account the Slope and Rating..

Our Handicaps are built on when the System is disenabled all ready, so all rounds are taking into consideration in the base handicap...

Our lower Caps got hosed in this Tournament because this was enabled for some reason and I didn't catch it until after the fact..

So to answer your question We do not use the System enabled but disabled.. Using it Disable does take into account the Slope and Rating.. Our handicap index is already built on the Process,

I hope this clarifies the process,

As started in Guideline, We use Auto calculate to get handicap index, players with less than 6 Rounds I will assign a conservative index, until they have enough rounds for the system to lock their Index.. The only way a locked index will changed is in the case of a handicap Bandit..

Let me add, But if we ever move to use the Slope and Rating with system enabled, its already on the Scorecard so it will take it into account.. Your right in the sense that the slope and rating were wrong on last tournament...