protee putting

[Cklguy2013]

I've had my Protee for a couple years and I'll have to admit I've never understood how to control putting distance on it. Tonight on a flat green I had the following results

3.27 mph ball speed, 4 feet, 1.22 feet per mph
5.01 mph ball speed, 9 feet, 1.79 feet per mph
7.16 mph ball speed, 19 feet, 2.65 feet per mph
9.01 mph ball speed, 30 feet, 3.32 feet per mph
11.86 mph ball speed, 52 feet, 4.38 feet per mph
14.74 mph ball speed, 80 feet, 5.42 feet per mph

Shouldn't this relationship be more linear? Am i missing something in the settings?

[Cklguy2013]

Well that is a good point which means that my ball speed is too high on my putts on my putting sensor, as I rolled 4 putts which all rolled 9', at 4.97, 4.94, 4.81 and 4.85 mph and this was from 15" in front of the sensor. It still holds that the average mph speed goes up as the stimp goes up though, meaning that putts of 8, 10 and 12 feet should have respective average mph speeds of 1.95, 2.43 and 2.92 mph respectively.

[SFR]

I would never use the average ball speed per foot measurement as once a ball reaches it max ball speed off the putter it will start to slow down with every inch it travels. On a 8 stimp that is much quicker than it does on a 10, 12 etc.

So if you are on any golf course real or in a sim and you can have a device that reads accurate ball speed to the tenth of a mph, you can test any green for it's stimp speed as long as you can find a flat spot for 15 feet. Then it should stop before that and where it stops is the stimp.

Now once you know your stimp speed you can make a chart to refer to and then know what mph putt you need to make a flat 30 footer. If uphill a few inches you can sometimes just add the inches as if it were feet and come out close to calculating that distance needed now to reach the same 30 foot uphill putt. Downhill you gain more than you loose uphill so that can't be calculated the same.

In real life golf on the greens I never think in terms of mph putt needed as the visual is all one needs but on a sim I need to know distance and green effects so I know what ball speed to try to reach.

[SFR]

I originally said longer putts have higher overall average ball speeds.

There again stimp is more the factor as your ball rolls slower on a 10 stimp 20 foot putt than it does on a 8 stimp 20 foot putt. And a 8 stimp putt will get there faster than a 10 stimp at the same 20 foot.

If you averaged out the speed on an 8 stimp 10 foot putt it would be a higher average than it would be on a 30 foot putt. Just due to that first part of the energy needed to get a ball rolling and once in motion it takes less energy to keep it moving.

[Cklguy2013]

That wasn't my point, my point was that a 50' putt has a higher average ball speed regardless of stimp then does a 4 foot putt.

p.s. incremental ball speed does matter, as you're not going to get greater distance out of an extra mph of ball speed on putts as you do on a driver, which is currently the case in TGC.

[Cklguy2013]

SFR, I think you are confusing the issue here, remember what we are trying to do is for sim purposes figure out how far a putt should roll on a flat green given an initial mph ball speed which is all we have to work with. So were are trying to replicate real world scenarios. Of course in the real world I don't look at at a given putt and go this is a 15.4 average mph putt, I just look at it an intuitively know how hard to hit it based on years of experience, however in the sim world we can't do that, so what we are attempting to do is figure out how far a putt should roll given and initial ball speed. I know that both based on rolling 6, 8 and 10 foot putts the speed is too low on short putts, and on long putts it is too high, if I hit a putt as hard as I can on real greens stimping at 8 or 9 it doesn't roll 160 feet, but it does on the TGC.

[Boerdoc]

You guys are hurting my head with all this. I am glad you are thinking about this and not me. And I have a Bachelor's in Biology and doctorate in Dentistry but I still cannot figure out putting in TGC.

My questions would be.

1. Are the putting speeds the same on all TGC courses or is that a programmable item in the course design? Given the same green contour and wind. I am just speaking about friction settings.
2.What are the stimp settings for TGC?

3. Is it adjustable in the interface?? With ball drag or any other setting.

[SFR]

I guess I never said that the green speeds were right or wrong, the first post I had entered numbers to match your distance and then what ball speed you need on an 8 stimp green just to compare.

So for example if what you are trying to say is that in order for you to putt on the sim greens, let's say that we think they are then running at a 7 stimp because if you putt 4.1 mph on a flat green you see it roll 7 feet. You then question, is that then accurate when you putt ?mph and get 20 feet. And then if you putt slow and get 3 feet and so on.

[Cklguy2013]

based on what ball speed average or start? And I don't understand your second paragraph?

Using a real stimp meter the green stimped at 9 from the sensor or 10 from my start point, that I know. Whether or not the ball speed is off on my sensor I do not know, but given that you say a stimp starts a ball at a speed of 4.1 then I assume that it is because I was getting 4.9 mph of ball speed. I also know that putts were rolling 66 inches on my mat and were showing as only going 36 inches on the TGC (btw my mat stimps at 12). All these things I do know. I also know that in the real world I can't hit a putt 180 feet, just as I can't hit a driver 300 yards. These are all the things I know. From these knowns I'm trying to get some predictable equation for how far a ball should go on TGC given a certain initial ball speed, as I also know that what is happening right now is not correct.

[Cklguy2013]

I agree boerdec, I think we've gotten side tracked here, to answer your questions,

1. I don't know, I've only tested on flat putting green,
2. On that green it stimped at 9, and
3. Not to the degree we want which is why Protee is looking for input.

[SFR]

I will stop at this one.

If you use my numbers for the 52 foot putt that averages .2040mph per foot traveled and compare to the 80 foot putt that averages .1646mph per foot traveled.

A 4 foot putt averages .735 mph per foot traveled.

So the longer the putt the lower average speed the putt has.

[Cklguy2013]

As I said in my original response to you we're are saying very similar things, you are using mph per foot whereas I am using feet per mph

52 feet - .02040 mph per foot = 4.9 feet per mph
4 feet - .735 mph per foot - 1.36 feet per mph

p.s. right from the first post feet per mph has been discussed, just as yards per mph are used with full clubs.

[Cklguy2013]

Based on SFR's comment about 4.1 mph of ball speed from a stimpmeter I will revist my numbers.

[Joko]

I have these same concerns but with the skytrak hardware. Should I start a skytrak thread? It seems like this post is more "Tgc sim putting" than protee specific?

I played some q school today and really enjoyed it. The putting was extremely difficult and maybe inconsistent? Everything was picked up fine but the roll speed is hard to measure, maybe this is just something that takes some getting use to? I found myself constantly over putting or way under putting on the same course. Occasionally getting lucky. For now I'm chalking this up to I need to get use to reading the greens, but it does seem tough to do.

[Bubba22]

You really need to pay attention to the green contour especially uphill vs downhill. I recommend you go to a putting green course and try it out fo speed. The very long putts are more difficult to judge but one needs to look at the uphill / downhill breaks.

[Cklguy2013]

I think if you read back Protee said that the putting applies to all units so it should be one solution fits all.

[ProTee United]

This concerns putting in TGC for all units so no new thread needed...

[Cklguy2013]

Please see revisions below

Do you want the short answer or the long answer? First my putts were all taken 15" in front of the sensor, second test were all done on the "Flat Putting Green Protee" in the TGC, Third I measured the current speed, using a stimpmeter (and yes I'm a loser i own one), and they are stimping at 10 right now, including the extra 15".

So the short answer would be if you want greens stimping at 10, the ball should roll, on a flat surface at 2.44 feet per mph of ball speed, if you want greens stimping at 12 it should be 2.93 feet per mph of ball speed.

The longer answer, however is a bit more complicated, as the ball speed goes up, the putts roll further on an average distance per mph of ball speed, this however does top out (stimping at 10) at an incremental speed of around 6 feet per mph of ball speed, so for example, generally speaking:

4 mph of ball speed = 10 feet
8 mph of ball speed = 21 feet
12 mph of ball speed = 33 feet
16 mph of ball speed = 47 feet
20 mph of ball speed = 63 feet
25 mph of ball speed = 85 feet
30 mph of ball speed = 110 feet

With the incremental feet per mph topping out at 6 feet per mph, so given my numbers above, if you hit a putt with 31 mph of ball speed, it should go about 116 feet.

[FaultyClubs]

Cklguy, I might not be following you but I don't think you are doing it properly.


1) To verify the stimp speed of the TGC greens one needs to putt at 4.1 mph in the game and record the distance the putt went in the game. That is the games stimp rating. Multiple runs should be done.

Cklguy: I can't tell what you've done but it doesn't seem to be this. If you have done this, can you please provide the data.


2) Having done that, the next question is, "Does TGC use a good algorithm to calculate the proper putt distances given the recorded stimp rating?" The answer to that involves more complicated equations than has been assumed. SFR provided calculated numbers for a stimp of 8. If TGC greens are in fact stimp of 8 then you can putt at the specified mph in his list and record the TGC distance. Multiple runs should be done. Any discrepancies would be basis for further discussion (ie his equations versus TGC or other factors). However, if TGC greens are a different stimp, you need proper calculated numbers for that stimp and then do the test.

Cklguy: I don't see this done either. If you have, can you please provide the data and reference the equations you used (since SFR's don't go below stimp of 8 and your original data appeared to be less).

Both step #1 and #2 have to be completed before we can tell if TGC has an issue or not.

[Cklguy2013]

Hey I used an actual stimp meter, so I don't need to putt at a certain speed, as you and SFR pointed out the ball comes off at 4.1 mph. The stimp meter rolled the ball 9' in the game, plus the 15" I started ahead of the sensor, so a stimp of 10.

Second, TGC does not have a good algorithm, thus this thread, and the green I putted on doesn't stimp at 8.

[mthunt]

Couldn't one use a GC2 on a real putting green and measure the distance?

[Cklguy2013]

Yes but not that doable in Ontario today... Lol. Plus you'd need one very large flat green.