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**4 Degrees Flat** · 04-15-2016, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by GHRIII View Post

To be perfectly honest, I don't even know what to do to cheat aside from rewinding. What do you think I am doing to cheat?

First off... everyone says I "accused" people of cheating. Someone else said they were "highly offended'. Everyone RELAX. That's part of the problem with today's world - people get offended WAY too easily. I never said anyone cheated. I simply said something seems fishy. Also stated could be the handicaps are incorrect. I'm sorry if you don't see this, but a 15 handicap doesn't shoot 3 straight rounds around 75. They don't. A 15 handicap shoots almost 90 on AVERAGE. To shoot 75,77,76 or whatever.... come on.

Secondly, GHR... I never mentioned YOU. I said the top 3.

**mthunt** · 04-15-2016, 04:10 AM

A

Originally posted by 4 Degrees Flat View Post

First off... everyone says I "accused" people of cheating. Someone else said they were "highly offended'. Everyone RELAX. That's part of the problem with today's world - people get offended WAY too easily. I never said anyone cheated. I simply said something seems fishy. Also stated could be the handicaps are incorrect. I'm sorry if you don't see this, but a 15 handicap doesn't shoot 3 straight rounds around 75. They don't. A 15 handicap shoots almost 90 on AVERAGE. To shoot 75,77,76 or whatever.... come on.

Secondly, GHR... I never mentioned YOU. I said the top 3.

The reality is you're dead on.

**4 Degrees Flat** · 04-15-2016, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by mthunt View Post

A

The reality is you're dead on.

Thank you. I've also received more than one PM stating the same thing. Most people are afraid to step up and say something but I'm not. Anyone who thinks a 15 HDCP can shoot three straight rounds in the mid 70s is just wrong. They may not even know it, but they're wrong. Not to sound arrogant, but I am dead on

I'm a 9 both on a sim and in real life - I shot one round of 75 when everything went right for me - the other two scores were 80 and 85. So I played well and shot about 3 strokes better than my HDCP. These guys shot about 10 shots better. I'd have to play just about perfect golf to shoot 10 shots better. It's just not realistic.

Reality is it's no big deal - it's just for fun so no biggie. But when guys are shooting a net 32 under par.... and they get offended when I say something doesn't seem right? For me to shoot -32 for three rounds as a 9 HDCP, I would have to shoot 70,71, and 70 to achieve that. 3 straight rounds under par. In HUNDREDS of rounds I think I shot par ONE time.

**ks-man** · 04-15-2016, 02:33 PM

I don't think anybody is disagreeing that the issue is the handicap system. I'm a 15 handicap in the game. I was actually an 18 handicap before the Major at Pebble Beach and after "winning" mentioned that I was surprised my handicap was still an 18. It got reviewed dropped to a 16 and I no longer was the winner. I'm now a 15. I've shot many rounds in the 70s on the simulator. Should I be a 15, probably not. Should I be a 5 or 6? It doesn't feel that way to me but perhaps I should be on a simulator even though I highly doubt I am lower than a 13 or 14 in real life.

The other issue though with figuring out correct handicaps is that all courses are supposed to be handicap rated. In TGC virtually none of them are since it requires so many plays to get handicap ratings. I don't know if the best 10 of past 20 is the correct metric or there is something else we should be using.

I don't think anything nefarious is going on with handicap ratings. I think the issue is it is a manual process and there are very few people reviewing all the scores (if anybody is) and the lag effect is incredible. I was truly an 18 when I first started playing on the simulator however after playing 2-4 rounds/week for the last few months I have gotten better. My handicap hasn't kept up with my play. In the end, it is all in fun and whether somebody wins or comes in last place it really doesn't have any impact on our enjoying the simulators. I know that I'm not really playing these courses 30 under par.

I didn't get offended nor do I think these are bad discussions. You implied that one of two things were going on, either the handicap system was flawed OR some people were cheating. You didn't outright accuse anybody but left that idea out there and somebody got offended. The best solution is for somebody to propose a handicap system and a group of people to stay on top of it so we can have accurate handicaps. Ideally we could also determine course handicap ratings as well. This would all have to be done outside of the game itself and just apply to our online tour.

**keither5150** · 04-15-2016, 02:34 PM

Maybe sim golf is a little different. My worst round out of my last 20 would be 90. And my best round would be 74 or 75. I think that the tour has me at 9 HC. That being said I did have 3 rounds in a row at Kapalua bay at 74,74, 70. All of which can be viewed on YouTube. You are right that the chance of me doing that again is very slim. Given that we use 6 foot gimmies, if your chipping is on, one could easily shoot well below their handicap if the handicap is high ( say 10-20 ) Once your handicap drops lower (3-5) your chances of shooting well below even become slimmer. With all of the new players, it will take a while before the handicaps are accurate. I think that I started with a 14 HC went down to a 5 or 6 and now am at a 9. I have played with Daddio live and can tell you that he is capable of putting up a round in the mid to high 70's. Daddio's short game can be very impressive at times. Ksman recorded all of his rounds and played extremely well compared to other rounds that I have seen of his. The third guy, I can't speak for. A handicapped tour basically tilts towards the most improved player. Since August I went from 30% Firs to 71% and 18% Girs to 44%. I have also put up a YouTube video showing my drives from Aug compared to now. I only fade now when I want to and the amount of fade is more controlled. I did have one round on Harbour town that I only missed one fairway on my way to a 78. Once again wasting a good round on practice. We will continue to see more than a few scores well under HC as the new players will improve their chipping and putting greatly as they get used to TGC.

**mthunt** · 04-15-2016, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by 4 Degrees Flat View Post

Thank you. I've also received more than one PM stating the same thing. Most people are afraid to step up and say something but I'm not. Anyone who thinks a 15 HDCP can shoot three straight rounds in the mid 70s is just wrong. They may not even know it, but they're wrong. Not to sound arrogant, but I am dead on

I'm a 9 both on a sim and in real life - I shot one round of 75 when everything went right for me - the other two scores were 80 and 85. So I played well and shot about 3 strokes better than my HDCP. These guys shot about 10 shots better. I'd have to play just about perfect golf to shoot 10 shots better. It's just not realistic.

Reality is it's no big deal - it's just for fun so no biggie. But when guys are shooting a net 32 under par.... and they get offended when I say something doesn't seem right? For me to shoot -32 for three rounds as a 9 HDCP, I would have to shoot 70,71, and 70 to achieve that. 3 straight rounds under par. In HUNDREDS of rounds I think I shot par ONE time.

On a side note, no one said anything about sandbagging or cheating. Handicapping is tough. It's made tougher when you have a Q School and a bunch guys learn how to play sim golf with their brand new software then compete with an inflated handicap. Again. Not cheating or sandbagging. People should start at scratch and earn a true handicap IMO. The guy who won seems to post a video of every round so we know he's not cheating. He is, however, getting better at sim golf and his handicap should reflect it.

Guys, this is an evolution, not a revolution. It's growing pains. It'll get better.

**andygg1986** · 04-15-2016, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by ks-man View Post

The other issue though with figuring out correct handicaps is that all courses are supposed to be handicap rated. In TGC virtually none of them are since it requires so many plays to get handicap ratings.

I was reading up on how the USGA calculates course and slope ratings for real courses and there is a mix of objective and subjective measures. I don't know if it is possible or how difficult it would be, but something along these lines could possibly be automatically applied to all unrated courses based on objective measurements to at least get a starting number.

Start every course at a 120/72 rating.
Take a standard yardage (say 6500 as an example) and subtract it from the course yardage. Multiply this by a weighting factor to get a length component.
Take a standard average fairway width at a certain distance from the tee box (maybe 225 yards away) and subtract it from the width on the course. Multiply this by a weighting factor.
Do the same thing for average green undulation (high point - low point), green size, number of bunkers, number of water hazards, number of holes with OB, and elevation change (and any other ones that could be automatically measured based on the course design file).

Then you would add all of these to the 120/72 rating to get a new rating. This could be used until the course gets enough plays to get a regular TGC handicap. There is always the possibility that designers would game the system by doing something like having one really narrow area of fairway at exactly 225 yards and wide everywhere else, but if people start playing those courses a lot to artificially inflate their handicap, that course will quickly get enough plays for a real rating.

As an example for course rating
Standard Course being measured Weighting multiplier for course rating Add/subtract
Yardage 6500 6700 .0025 +0.5
Fwy width 25 30 -.05 -0.25
Undulation 3 5 0.25 +0.5
Green size 50 40 -.075 +0.75
# bunkers 50 60 .025 +0.25
# H2O 6 3 .25 -0.75
# OB 3 3 0.25 +0
Elevation 50 40 .5 -.5

Total for course rating would be 72+.5-.25+.5+.75+.25+.75+0-.5 = 72.5

This assumes that all of these parameters could be extracted from the course design files, or other ones could be added as well, but at least it would give a starting point. The weighting factors could be tweaked depending on how much people think each parameter affects difficulty.

**Daddio** · 04-15-2016, 03:50 PM

I did finish 3rd, Daddio, I guess I should say I wasn't offended, but pissed lol
I am sorry for stirring up the hornets nest, but I guess it did bring up a lot of good points, and you are totally correct about the handi-caps, yup I did just say that!!
I could alternate shots with Jason Day and not do that well at Augusta, but I was proud of myself for hitting the ball well and not chokingI
I probably won't play this week, need to let my arm & shoulder recover from playing way to much this winter and want to do some real golf.
So once again I AM SORRY!!!!!!!

**druid68** · 04-15-2016, 04:04 PM

Man I thought that the course was near impossible with all the elevation change and wind and tiny targets and sloped greens. Reflected by last place lol... Still had a blast playing the sim and watching the real thing on TV.

**Ironstrokes** · 04-15-2016, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by druid68 View Post

Man I thought that the course was near impossible with all the elevation change and wind and tiny targets and sloped greens. Reflected by last place lol... Still had a blast playing the sim and watching the real thing on TV.

Don't think you were supposed to be playing with the wind on, that may have had something to do with that haha

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