Does Skytrak putting suck that bad or am I that bad?

[wbond]

Zero'd out=same playing field for all.

As good as putting is on TGC, it's still sim golf after all. Speed and picking line on the game are hard enough.

Where is this poll at????? Would be nice if the poll also required what hardware you currently use.

[wbond]

If i had a system like yours i wouldn't want it since i want to know how I'm actually putting. However, hitting straight putts that go way left or right off the bat is not good and just penalizes. I also would prefer all to have zero so it can be fair to all. Allowing me to make a putt that i should've missed and someone else hit the same putt and take a miss is not right either.

[awisnia]

Yeah - make it a setting so that users can turn it off for tourney play... Then leave it on if they have a front-end that provides meaningful data and are playing outside a multi-platform situation,

[keither5150]

Believe me...if this goes through, I will be able to turn it off. People should be able to choose. I love my system for putting. I just did a test with a cabinet corner painted flat black. I rolled the ball down the rail 10 times. Disregard the first putt as it snapped data from me setting up. and the last putt the rail fell over. So I have 8 good putts and my control panel was from 0.04 to 0.06 and it was rounded up or down to the nearest 1/10. if you watch the ball closely, you can see how the dimples make the ball wobble ever so slightly. I agree with you Wbond, I want to see how I am putting. As for the rest, 0.0 makes total sense. I might be sweating the 8 foot putt with no break a little more than the other guys..... but it's all good.

[inorkuo]

here's gary's 2nd run with putting correction off. if you account a right bias of 5.6 degrees the numbers actually aren't that awful except for a few outliers.

BS	HA	HA w/Bias
4.3	8.4	2.8
4.2	5.6	0
4.9	8.3	2.7
4.5	5.6	0
4.1	5.7	0.1
5	7.3	1.7
4.4	1.5	-4.1
4.6	5.1	-0.5
5.5	4.3	-1.3
4.3	7.4	1.8
4.9	4.8	-0.8
4.9	4.9	-0.7
4.5	6.9	1.3
4.8	4.9	-0.7
5.1	4.7	-0.9
4.9	7.4	1.8
4.6	5.1	-0.5
5	4.7	-0.9
5.1	4.7	-0.9
4.1	5.8	0.2
4.9	4.8	-0.8
4.8	5	-0.6
4.9	4.9	-0.7
3.7	6.4	0.8

[DirtyGarry24]

inorkuo - What "bias" are you talking about? My guide is parallel to the target line. Maybe I'm missing something?

[inorkuo]

The average azimuth of your putts is 5.6 degrees right. If we assume that is where skytrak is reading as straight, then it has a right bias of 5.6 degrees for putting.

[DirtyGarry24]

I got ya. Trying to get up to speed.

[Lgnir]

Not trying to start anything, but was wondering why GC2 users are posting in a Skytrak forum?

[docsmilez]

Very simple, because this is not just a skytrak issue. GC2 also has the same issue (not as bad as skytrak) and we are trying to figure out the resolution for ALL of us. We are working on improving the TGC experience for all users. Hope that answers your question.

[Lgnir]

OK, well that makes sense then. Like I said, I was just curious is all and not trying to start anything between the two hardware users. I would have thought that the CG2 was way more accurate than the SkyTrak when it comes to putting! I didn't realize that we were all having these putting issues.

[keither5150]

GSA is not that easy to do since the camera is 8'9" above the putting surface. I have to build something with my non reflective carpet. I thought my test of putting at a target ball on the center line was pretty good. When the ball was struck close to dead center, I had 0.13 variance. I guess I can try to find some extra carpet. It would be pretty sick if it was less than 0.13 HA I just did 8 putts. My control panel read 0.06 to 0.04 each time. I would say that GSA putting is pretty dead on. TGC rounds off to the nearest 1/10 of a degree. But I had a 0.02 spread on my CP. Before I turned TGC on, I had 5 putts of 0.13 in a row. So I started the game and moved my rail a bit to try to hit 0.00 HA. That was a waste of 5 min. My first and last putt in my data is during set up. With my system, you can't have anything in the FOV or else you will be using a rewind.

[wbond]

I think it was to compare systems and show whether or not their capabilities match their stated specs.

[FaultyClubs]

To get a better comparison with the other tests, I took all the speeds greater than 4.5 and less than 5.5 and called it 5 mph. Did similar to get a 4 mph grouping. Results are:

5 MPH = (Mean = 5.5R, Sd = 1.2)

4 MPH = (Mean = 5.9R, Sd = 1.9)

These are relatively long putts. 4 mph is around 10-12 feet at tournament stimps for example. If one hit a hundred perfectly straight 10 foot putts you would expect about 2/3 of them to wander about within an error circle of about 3.8 degrees. And the remaining third to fall within an error circle of roughly 10 degrees (with most of those fitting within 7.5 degree circle). These are the random errors the Skytrak would be adding on top of whatever errors the user is making. It would be interesting to see shorter putts based on 2 and 3 mph data for comparison.

The mean of 5.5R to 5.9R just indicates the test track wasn't aligned with the Skytrak properly but doesn't otherwise tell us much.

[awisnia]

Yup. maybe we all just need to aim differently? Figure out what straight is and put a "cup" target there? More like real life putting anyway. If you're trying to develop a Pelz's "start-ball-cup-ball-back-stroke" rhythm anyway!

[keither5150]

FaultyClubs...... my data is pretty sick.... disregard the first and last putt..... I was setting up and the last one my rail fell over. But I have 8 shots rolling down a maple cabinet corner painted flat black. I went to a lot of work for 8 shots.

I guess when I miss a putt..... I missed the putt.

Friends often comment on how accurate it feels. Even Chris S.... ST user.

I didn't actually putt. I rolled the ball down the rail I built. I can't putt that straight, even down a rail.

[awisnia]

Yup. It's funny, i have about 8 guys that play at my house now and then. All but ONE thinks it's very accurate to real-life. He thinks it's always short. (because it can't tell that he compresses the ball!)

[keither5150]

After reading all of the posts. I would vote for letting the user choose to have 0.0 HA across all sims. That would also be the easiest thing for ProTee to do. Like I said in an earlier post, I did play one round in PX4 mode with my Hcam disabled. So every putt was 0.0. I don't think it really helped me.... maybe helped on one or two putts.

[Jtangm04]

I'd vote for zero'ing option for all platforms. It'll give people the option for systems who can accurately measure HA to leave it on. I do find myself not concentrating that hard on skytrak putts b/c of the random HA measurements. Most of the time I'm playing for the gimme due to this issue.

With Awisnia's comments about how slow putts go compared to regular golf shots and skytrak's camera system not being setup for slower moving shots, I wonder if making more marks on the ball would improve putting accuracy on the skytrak.

[Bnorman58]

If this flies, can we get some sort of separate post on what was decided and how to set it. I am assuming it will be patch for TGC and a settings file change. I cant really keep following this post. If I play in this, I want to be on equal footing and my sensor (ProTee, remember us?) is pretty penalizing on slight pushes and pulls so I'll take the few legitimate shots it would save me along with the few that might not be as legit. Anyway, please let us know in clear terms for those who might not even be following this board, let alone this topic. I want to see everyone as much on a level playing field as possible.

[keither5150]

Hopefully it will be available for those who want it or need it. And a easy off switch for those who don't.

[wbond]

And ST is quite penalizing on shots inside of 20yds. We have to either hit ball after ball to get shots to read under 10yds or so or figure out how to play shots inside of 20yds with virtually no spin. It's give and take with various systems.

[wbond]

Well, i just did some quick testing putting down alignment rods using both putting correction on and off and at various lengths.

Shot Correction ON
3' Putts-HA of 2,2,0,0,2
6' Putts-HA of 1,0,1,2,1
10' Putts-HA of 0,1,0,1,1
15' Putts-HA of 0,0,0,0,0

Shot Correction ON but i moved the ball 1.5" away from the unit
10" Putts-HA of 1,1,1,1,1

Shot Correction ON but i moved the ball 1.5" closer to the unit
10' Putts-HA of 1,1,3,0,0

Shot Correction OFF
4' Putts-HA 7.5, 7.7, 8.1, 7.3, 3.6
15' Putts-HA -2.1, 2.1, 0, 2.2, -2.2

[DirtyGarry24]

wbond - Your correction ON putts are much better than mine. Interesting though that correction OFF short putts are very similar though. By similar I mean they are abysmal.

[Brandon]

I know it won't happen but I'd love to see putting removed entirely from TGC tournaments. It' really is terrible, in my opinion. It's the only aspect that makes me feel like I'm playing a video game.
I'd like to see a tournament that would count strokes to the green and proximity to the hole thereafter as your score.

[keither5150]

And I feel the opposite. I have a sim that is accurate within +/- 0.1 degrees HA. Speed is equally as accurate. TGC's ball physics are awesome on the green. Everyone who plays on my sim raves about the putting...... There is zero wrong with TGC's putting. Just like every other shot, putting needs some time in your practice schedule. Once they have a patch to zero out the randomness. You'll probably change your tune. BTW, I felt the same way about putting when I had Red Chain. My putting is so accurate, I usually know when I miss the second it leaves the face. IMO , putting is the most accurate part of TGC.

[Bnorman58]

As most of you know I'm not one to pull punches. I am now speaking as one who couldn't care less about the tour rules and if we decide to do 0 Az or not. Shky golf won't like me and I don't care, there's a reason I don't buy sky caddy. They want that income every year because they "walk the courses and it's more accurate". I will buy the 20 dollar iPhone app which is always within a yard or 2 of my brothers sky caddie. You guys are paying for a game improvement package for what? If it's game improvement should it not include putting since its half the game. You guys let sky golf off the hook too easy , even to the point of making excuses for them. They touted themselves as a sim tool as much as a launch monitor. They have a big delay, which is why I didn't buy one. You guys accept it. They have a joke of a putting experience, you guys accept it and have pro tee do a work around. Again, I couldn't care less from a tour standpoint but you guys paid 2 k and continue to pay every year for a game improvement package for the "privilege" of playing sim golf. Stand up for yourselves.

[keither5150]

Here is my GSA data, there are only 8 shots..... the last shot, the rail fell over, so I decided to quit. GSA rounds off to the nearest 1/10 of a degree. My control panel measured 0.04 to 0.06 degrees for the 8 shots. My system uses a overhead Hcam to take multiple images of the ball. The images are stitched together to form a trace or trail. Angle is measured from the first image to the last. Resolution is down to the pixel. After seeing wbond's data, it shows how Shot correction is needed, especially for short putts. ProTee is probably working on the patch right now.

[Sledge0001]

I for one think locking it down to focus on speed would make putting better overall. I can't tell you how many times I aim left to compensate for the 1-3 degree right recurring variance.

[DirtyGarry24]

If it is consistent the user should just align their system properly! Maybe I'm missing something but it is a basic requirement that we align our systems to our target line.

FaultyClubs - inorkuo is correct in setting you straight on my alignment. Laughable that someone would unknowingly suggest that someone can't set up their system correctly. Accusations only meant to start trouble.

FYI - I'm a low cap IRL and currently a .1 cap on TGC tour. I have my target line setup to mimic IRL ball flight. I'd say it's pretty accurate as well, shot even par 72 on the grass at my home club yesterday!!! 85 degrees and the flowers were a bloomin'...

[awisnia]

It seems pretty obvious that FaultyClubs is suggesting that we all now see that alignment for putting may not be what we think it to be. And, that coming to an understanding of where "straight" is and then putting along that line is indeed part of "aligning the system properly" .

[inorkuo]

i believe that skytrak alignment is different from one skytrak to the next. my skytrak needed to be pointed slightly right to get good results. i was comparing it with my protee system at the time which had the overhead hcam which gives very accurate horizontal launch measurements. seth from skytrak has stated that the laser alignment mode is not to be trusted and that users should align the skytrak itself parallel to the target line for best results. that might be true for some units, but it wasn't for mine. also, my line for putting was not the same as for full shots. i am a high handicap golfer and i was putting off of a fiberbuilt mat so i didn't sweat it if i missed easy putts but i can understand how a good putter could get very frustrated with it.

[DirtyGarry24]

inorkuo - you are exactly right. I've had similar convos with folks about alignment. I don't question users as to what they believe true alignment to be for the fact that you bring up. Nobody has the right to question a user as to how they feel their system should be set up.

It also appears that maybe some people on the forum are having a light bulb moment as to the difference between my testing and how I usually put on my system. Reading comprehension is often lost on this forum.