How much does your mat effect spin?

[Ryan380golf]

I an getting very low spin numbers, and unreasonably long carry distances... 2 to 3k with my 7 iron. Wondering if it is my mat. My mat is pretty hard and firm. Just a guess from me... Any ideas? My side spin seems fine. I'm guessing my irons can't get down and through the ball. Sound reasonable?

[Ronsc1985]

This topic comes up every now and then. You are hitting behind the ball. If you hit the ball first before the club hits the mat the ball will be gone before club mat contact, and there is literally no effect. The mat however will have a pronounced effect on any even slightly fat shot.

[goatbarn]

Mats have been proven to add launch and lower spin to all shots. See here: http://blog.trackmangolf.com/mats-vs...ts-difference/

Should'nt be making a 7-iron 2-3k though. New ball? Urethane cover?

A non-urethane cover ball, not struck too great, or worn out...I could buy 4k rpm 7 irons. But if not, seems like the balls are bad or the contact is.

[Ronsc1985]

Mats have been proven to add launch and lower spin to all shots. See here: http://blog.trackmangolf.com/mats-vs...ts-difference/

Should'nt be making a 7-iron 2-3k though. New ball? Urethane cover?

A non-urethane cover ball, not struck too great, or worn out...I could buy 4k rpm 7 irons. But if not, seems like the balls are bad or the contact is.

Explain how a ball hit and gone before the club head ever touches the mat is affected by the mat.

[andygg1986]

Just a guess here. The ball is in contact with the club for some period of time while it compresses. Suppose your club is moving down at before you hit the ball or mat. If it hits the ball and mat simultaneously, there will be some time while the ball is on the clubface compressing and the club is interacting with the mat. I could imagine that before contact your club might be moving down at something like 4 degrees. A firm mat will impede the downward movement more than grass, so your angle of attack would be reduced from say 4 to 2 degrees after contact but before the ball leaves the face. This would reduce spin and cause a higher launch which is what the trackman data shows.

[Ronsc1985]

Just a guess here. The ball is in contact with the club for some period of time while it compresses. Suppose your club is moving down at before you hit the ball or mat. If it hits the ball and mat simultaneously, there will be some time while the ball is on the clubface compressing and the club is interacting with the mat. I could imagine that before contact your club might be moving down at something like 4 degrees. A firm mat will impede the downward movement more than grass, so your angle of attack would be reduced from say 4 to 2 degrees after contact but before the ball leaves the face. This would reduce spin and cause a higher launch which is what the trackman data shows.

The ball is on the clubface for something less then 5/10000 seconds. My experience using a GC2 off a CCE mat (which is really thick and soft) vs hitting at the range off close cropped bent grass is there is no statistically meaningful difference in a correctly hit, ball first shot, in that the average difference is about 1/2 my variability shot to shot. On a CCE mat it is really easy to tell if you hit anything even the slightest bit fat as the nap really grabs the clubhead and your distance takes a really big hit kind of like hitting it slightly fat when the ground is soggy. I have not tried this on a hard mat since my wrists and elbows strongly protest such an experiment.

As to the trackman "experiment" they have no description of the relative hardness or lack thereof of the mat they used or any physics based explanation for their results. Such lack of specificity would get you laughed at by any audience versed in elementary experimental procedure.

But this is golf so you can get by with most anything as witnessed by the so called old ball flight rules which were in vogue forever in spite of the fact that any freshman physics professor could tell you they were BS as was explained to me many years ago in my first engineering school physics class..

[andygg1986]

As to the trackman "experiment" they have no description of the relative hardness or lack thereof of the mat they used or any physics based explanation for their results. Such lack of specificity would get you laughed at by any audience versed in elementary experimental procedure..

Under the Process section of the Trackman experiment, actually do say "The mat hitting surface used is the Real Feel Country Club Elite."
Also, if your clubhead speed is 85 mph, the club will travel about 3/4" in the 5/10000 seconds that the ball is in contact with it. As you said, with a CCE mat the nap really grabs the clubhead even if you hit it slightly fat. That would seem to imply that the mat would have a noticeable effect on the club over that length. Likewise, a 2* change in angle of attack over 0.75" of horizontal travel would mean the clubhead would travel 0.026" (0.67mm) less downward over that distance. I don't think that it is too hard to believe that a CCE mat would slow the downward travel of the club by that amount.

I agree that I would like more details from Trackman, although I imagine most people without an engineering/science background would care too much.

[J.R.GOLF]

I an getting very low spin numbers, and unreasonably long carry distances... 2 to 3k with my 7 iron. Wondering if it is my mat. My mat is pretty hard and firm. Just a guess from me... Any ideas? My side spin seems fine. I'm guessing my irons can't get down and through the ball. Sound reasonable?

From what you are saying you are getting more carry which means you are not hitting it fat or else your carry would be a little shorter, I would think. Make sure your club face and grooves are clean. A few months ago I was wondering why I kept getting 3200 spin on my sand wedge time and time again, that was on Flightscope, so I decided to run the GC2 at the same time thinking they were misreads, but the GC2 read the same low spin?! So I decided to try a different sand wedge to see, up went my spin to the 7000s, that's when it hit me that I hadn't cleaned my sand wedge which was getting me the 3200 spin, it was all gummed up from two months of hitting my mat, cleaned it up and spin was instantly back in the 7000s. Not saying that's your case but I learned the importance of cleaning my clubs.

[Jbryant016]

True that!

[Wyzyguy]

From what you are saying you are getting more carry which means you are not hitting it fat or else your carry would be a little shorter, I would think. Make sure your club face and grooves are clean. A few months ago I was wondering why I kept getting 3200 spin on my sand wedge time and time again, that was on Flightscope, so I decided to run the GC2 at the same time thinking they were misreads, but the GC2 read the same low spin?! So I decided to try a different sand wedge to see, up went my spin to the 7000s, that's when it hit me that I hadn't cleaned my sand wedge which was getting me the 3200 spin, it was all gummed up from two months of hitting my mat, cleaned it up and spin was instantly back in the 7000s. Not saying that's your case but I learned the importance of cleaning my clubs.

Good Point! Clean the face and the groove.. Needed Friction for proper spin rates. What kind of spin rates with wedges is the OPer getting?

[Ryan380golf]

Ok let's say my grooves are gummed up, and my balls are outside baking in the hot Arizona sun daily. Is it accurate that I am actually hitting my 7 iron 20 yards further then my average? Low spin and long distance is not a mis-read by the skytrak?

[Ronsc1985]

Under the Process section of the Trackman experiment, actually do say "The mat hitting surface used is the Real Feel Country Club Elite."
Also, if your clubhead speed is 85 mph, the club will travel about 3/4" in the 5/10000 seconds that the ball is in contact with it. As you said, with a CCE mat the nap really grabs the clubhead even if you hit it slightly fat. That would seem to imply that the mat would have a noticeable effect on the club over that length. Likewise, a 2* change in angle of attack over 0.75" of horizontal travel would mean the clubhead would travel 0.026" (0.67mm) less downward over that distance. I don't think that it is too hard to believe that a CCE mat would slow the downward travel of the club by that amount.

I agree that I would like more details from Trackman, although I imagine most people without an engineering/science background would care too much.

Even with a CCE mat the degree of hardness depends greatly on how many shots have been hit from the area you are placing the ball. I have rotated my mat several times to get to a new section of nap. Even with a GC2, where you have a fairly large area to place the ball the mat does wear down.

Again my experience hitting and monitoring the spin, launch angle etc. with a GC2 show that for me at least hitting off closely cropped bent or the CCE has no appreciable effect on any shot I do not hit even slightly fat. On the CCE slightly fat is really noticeable in terms of ball speed, carry distance etc.

The results are so similar I seldom even practice outdoors anymore even though the range hitting surface is really pristine and my club membership includes all the range balls I care to hit. I find indoors to be more consistent day to day since there is a constant temperature,no wind and consistent ball type and quality, in other words less variables when comparing results.

I quit taking the GC2 to the range a long time ago as I got tired of carrying it from my car and then answering all the questions from everybody who strolled by.

[Ironstrokes]

Ok let's say my grooves are gummed up, and my balls are outside baking in the hot Arizona sun daily. Is it accurate that I am actually hitting my 7 iron 20 yards further then my average? Low spin and long distance is not a mis-read by the skytrak?

Are you getting these numbers all the time or just every once in a while? I ask because maybe once or twice every couple of rounds I get a shot that does that, but it seems to happen with any random club, not just the 7 iron. The mis read is always off a super well struck shot that I know I hit well and it will show a big slice with like 3000 spin (for a 7 iron) and go like 225 yards. I don't think it possible for me to hit a 7 iron that far (usually in the 180 range), especially with a slice, and its always on one I know I hit well. Ill take a rewind and then hit it the same exact way again and it will go dead straight and at my normal distance. Still not really sure why it happens but usually just let it go, do a rewind and keep it moving.

[Dan McWhirter]

I would think the mat would affect ball spin, even when the shot is perfect, because you are compressing the ball into the mat. So, the club may not interact with the mat but the ball certainly does.

[FaultyClubs]

I would think the mat would affect ball spin, even when the shot is perfect, because you are compressing the ball into the mat. So, the club may not interact with the mat but the ball certainly does.

A ball that compresses into the mat is called a mis-hit for most people...

[Dan McWhirter]

Down and through...with the irons. If you take a divot after striking the ball, you did compress the ball into the ground, trapping it between the club and the ground. We get significant differences between summertime Bermuda and wintertime rye overseed. Rye is sticky.

[FaultyClubs]

''If you take a divot after striking the ball, you did compress the ball into the ground, trapping it between the club and the ground''

That's a myth. It doesn't happen that way.

[Dan McWhirter]

Whatever you say Faulty Clubs. Here's somethin else to think about. I have picked up several good Titleist Professional 90s and 100s (some old farts must have bought them by the case!). I was hitting them today with an eight iron (did not try driver) just to look at response. Distance was really not much different from the Pro V1. But the spin was outrageous. Getting up into 12,000 with the eight iron (compared to my 6,000 to 7,000 regular), much higher ball flight, and shot shapes of draw and fade (I can't hardly hit a fade anymore) with just the smallest face to swing angle.