Full Swing Kit - New Launch Monitor

[Anansi]

Well, one of the big players is jumping into the consumer market for launch monitors. According to the webpage, Full Swing is releasing the “Kit” for $4k, and the reported metrics looks to include club pash and face angle at impact. The product page is light on details, but this looks to be the kind of product that could really disrupt Foresight’s hold on the midrange market.

https://www.fullswinggolf.com/kit-pre-sale/#open

[TrueGolferNorth]

At the end of day I doubt that a $4000 device, with one radar and one camera, can accurately measure the impact location indoors therefore the spin axis number will be questionable at best. Most likely it will end up like a Mevo Plus with on-device display that is most suitable for use on the driving range, not indoors.

[Bubba22]

Here is some questions and answers from Full Swing:

How much room to screen is needed for indoor use?

Roughly 7-10’ to screen/net and the unit sits 7’ behind the golfer

How accurate will chipping and putting be?

Accurate! Proven at the highest level for the best players in the world – PGA Tour!

What ball and club data is measured?

ball speed, club head speed, club path, club face, face to target, ball direction, apex, smash factor, launch angle, attack angle, carry distance, total distance, side total, side carry

Is it all radar or us the camera used as well?

Both: https://www.fullswinggolf.com/kit-pre-sale/




More to come.

[Gresh12]

The list excludes spin and spin axis. Not sure if that’s an oversight or actually not measured but hard to get distance and side correct without spin.

[Bubba22]

Oversight. I clarified that spin and spin axis etc is measured.

[justin1287]

7 feet behind the golfer or 7 feet behind the ball?

[Bubba22]

More Q and A



1. I assume it measures spin and spin axis?

Absolutely!

2. Whats used to measure chips and puts? Radar, camera or both?

Both radar and camera.


3. Do you need mettalic dots on ball or club indoors?

No.


4. What software comes with it?

Againn, we are still in the early stages but looking like TGC.



5. What software can you purchase? TGC? E6? Full swings software?

TGCC, more info coming in early 2021.

[Sixmudd]

Thanks for the info. I put down my deposit yesterday using the link that was provided here. But I see on the website in the faqs, that they’re sending out invitations. Anyone know if anyone can use the link? I got an confirmation email so assuming it’s all good?

[Bubba22]

More info:

How exactly is it measuring both club and ball from radar? Dual radar and camera tech.



Does it record your swing video? Yes.



What is machine learning enhanced radar mean? We can train the “brain” of the LM for the next 10+ years.



Is it radar reading chips and putts? Or camera? Both.

[Bubba22]

A rep from FullSwing. They are doing a soft launch now.

[Brettster]

Bubba22 - awesome, thank you for the info! If they are doing a soft launch, do they have any other video of the unit in use? If they can claim all of these things, then they must have at least one working unit somewhere?

[Bubba22]

I will check to see if they have any videos in action.

[Chuck]

Nice. I heard about this LM today and was curious about the tech involved. I like the 'Machine Learning' component for a system like this. It just will make the unit much better at associating a swing type with the numbers. Very smart. Thanks for the URL Bubba22. Very informative.

[Bubba22]

Your welcome. More info to come soon.

[D Davis]

Tracking the possible use of TGC software. Bubba22 can you ask if they will also use their FS software and any talk about Top Golf software? I have seen Top Golf software is available on their other systems.

[Bubba22]

Here is the response. Keep in mind this is very early in the process and things may change.


No, most likely TGC for LM game play.



FSG/Top Golf software only available for Pro/Sport3 sim sales

[Bubba22]

The FS software is E6. I was told at the present time there is no plan to integrate with E6 but it's too early to say.

[SkeetShooter]

This statement confuses me. Is it coming with a subscription to TGC2019? They are saying its likely going to be able to implement with the main Simulation software, but not knowing what software the LM will come with is something that will make this more attractive to people.

Lets spitball here for a second.
Mevo+ came with 6 free courses on E6, and its own range software.
ST only comes with limited range software, but has a subscription to get access to advanced range and bag features.


Now if Fullswing Kit comes with their proprietary range software (I imagine that it will) and TGC2019... Now we are really talking about a much better value statement. And I know this could be a stretch but when thinking about launch monitor partners and their ability to partner with different people and companies, PGA has partnered with FS in several ways, and it would make sense that if anyone could partner with ProTee, it would be FullSwing...

4. What software comes with it?

Againn, we are still in the early stages but looking like TGC.

[3on3putt]

If it came with a lifetime subscription to TGC, that would be a massive selling point. That essentially makes it a 3k launch monitor with the 1k sim software. I could see TGC partnering with them to include a 1-year subscription with the purchase of the launch monitor with the idea that many of those people will make the lifetime purchase after that 1-year subscription ends. Like a 1-year trial to get people hooked essentially. I'm definitely curious to see how this plays out.

[Bubba22]

From what I know it will come with a range app for practice. TGC will be an add on. At the present time it is not integrated with TGC but that is the plan. Not sure about E6 but will check.

[wbond]

Bubba22 Can you inquire about the setup requirements? Does it need a flat continuous surface from unit to screen?

[Bubba22]

Yes similar to Mevo plus. 7 to 10 feet to screen and 7 feet behind minimum.

[frodaddy00]

$100 on scratch offs or more frivolous golf equipment. I donated the $100 to TW retirement fund.

[SkeetShooter]

I've got this theory that may make sense. FullSwing and Trackman are both premium products. We are talking about implementation costs in excess of $20K for each device. Now, I think with the whole pandemic disrupting the market, and as we can clearly see by interest by new people on this forum and in golf, you are seeing more people willing to, or forced to, play golf at home. Because of this ST and Mevo+ are out of stock due to supply and demand.

If you are a strategic executive at FullSwing or Trackman, you have to think that with their technology and operational base, they could get into this market by offering their own low cost simulation options. Capture a piece of that market share, especially since a lot of their commercial accounts are either downsizing or closing up due to restrictions.

My theory is that PGA Show 2021, not only will we see a physical implementation and demo of FullSwing Kit, but I bet Trackman has something cooking as well. I can see them releasing something in the mid-tier area (pricing wise) and their new TM5.

[Bubba22]

Good theory. That's possible. No word on a TM unit at this price yet but who knows!!

[Brettster]

I doubt TM has any chance at coming in at this price-range!

Regarding FullSwing, if they are producing 25,000 units to sell at $4,000 that's a cool $100M. If they find out they have built too many and the demand cannot reach that high, then they're going to have to lower the price to get rid of those units.I think they are trying to get a feel for the market price they can sell these units at, at this point... hence the $100 reservation fee, it's enough to let them know you're serious about buying it and coming up with the other $3,900, but not too much that it stops people from dropping it, just to see where this goes - giving them a good idea of how many units they can move at $4K.

[Gresh12]

I'll admit I know very little about Full Swing but obviously their current products are very high end (at least by price) and they have some good PGA names linked to them for what it's worth.

I can't decide if I'm most interested in this unit to see what it does itself or what it could do to the competitive landscape (if Full Swing is indeed premium accuracy). I recall getting in a debate a year or two ago with folks that I think the GC2 is shockingly expensive given its age (I'm not disputing it's accuracy just that technology costs decrease for almost everything) and that we weren't too far off from sub $5k launch monitors with ball and club data. I don't want to rekindle the GC2 debate but my point is mainly that I think the companies selling the high price units are going to have some tough decisions to make at some point (hopefully soon).

I have no idea what the breakpoint will be but at some point even for a person with means spending $20k for "almost perfect" (no launch monitor is perfect) versus $5k for something that's within 1% (not sure we're that close yet) is going to reduce future sales of the $20k units for many. If your market becomes only those that make money off the machine (i.e., pros, fitters, etc) it's hard to gain market share as that's a slow growing group.

The question I want to see answered is whether companies like Trackman and Foresight take the BMW approach or Ferrari approach. The former has come down market and sells a relatively affordable version whereas the latter stuck with status symbol top end performance only. I've not pulled the financials but I'd guess Ferrari has higher profit margins but BMW has higher raw dollars of profit.

If others try to come down market the challenge is becoming how to do so effectively in the launch monitor market. For cars its relatively easy in terms of engine and trim options etc. but it's becoming harder in launch monitors to pick a middle ground. Flightscope is trying the BMW approach but I sort of think they've got a 1 series a 3 series and an M8 and probably have the cost/value about right between the Mevo and Mevo+ but they've got nothing for someone like me (I own a Mevo+ currently) that wants slightly more to get face/path data but isn't going to spend more than $4-$5k absolute max and even that is pushing it.

What does a Foresight or TM product look like that competes at the "consumer" price range that doesn't gut their flagship (unless they're willing to bet on the software side and sell the units at thin margins which is a big gamble in current state but I'd happily pay $1k a year to TM for their awesome software if the radar was remotely affordable for me). With units coming out at the $2k-$5k price that have most club/ball parameters its hard to release a product that skimps on parameters too much even if you are marginally more accurate. If Foresight was interested in this approach I also think they would have done it previously with the GC2 as component cost on a 10+ year old product must have dropped. Unfortunately I suspect almost all launch monitor companies are blinded by demand right now with even the top end units backordered because people are stuck at home and realizing indoor golf is better than no golf. Quarterly profits probably outweigh market growth in folks minds so I don't suspect a Foresight or Trackman to get creative until the orders stop rolling in.

[3on3putt]

What's the fullswing sim software like? How does it compare with fsx, e6, tgc? (For full course play that is)

From a quick glance at their website it looks like their high end commercial offerings have their own sim software. But it doesn't appear that would be included with this particular product?

[Brettster]

SkeetShooter - I believe FS is looking to upgrade their software and get away from the old Red-Chain technology, that's why they have ads up for unity software engineers. Whether they can find someone like that (with golf experience) is up for grabs.

3on3putt - I think the only way they can separate themselves from their own high-end launch monitors/packages is by not giving away the software with this new unit. I would still like to see video of the unit working.

[SkeetShooter]

Brettster I did not know about them finally looking to upgrade their software side. Its a little too late honestly. They have arguably one of the best launch monitor systems on the market, and for the past several years, their range/practice software has been just terrible. I think the new FSX was a massive letdown for their consumers. Whatever they do, they better take care of their long term customers with a free upgrade or something. They owe it to them.

[Bubba22]

Full swing uses E6 software for their current simulators.

[Cbstephenson13]

I just received an email saying my Kit has been reserved

[Hollywood]

I'm new to the forum and am just beginning the build of my first Sim (new garage was just built and 1/2 of it will be dedicated to the sim) and have watched FS for a long time but wasn't ready to shell out the big money for it. The fact that it will sync to a tablet, phone & watch is a definite bonus for me. This came along at a great time for me-I made my reservation the other night and received final confirmation today!

In the meantime, I had sent a some questions along that I didn't see answered in this forum and received the following replies:

1.) When chipping and putting, does it immediately recognize the ball and provide accurate distance for it or is there a small lag between hitting the ball and the unit picking it up? Answer-"1/2 second delay max"

2.) One thing I’ve been impressed by with FS systems is that the ball is immediately picked up on screen at the point of screen impact and carries through just as though the ball is still going “through” the screen. Will this also have that same instant recognition? Answer-"Pro models (infrared lightwave tech) no delay, Sport models (camera tech) have a ½ second delay"

3.) Will I need additional software for Sim play? Answer-"Yes, TGC software will be an option for game play"

4.) Will it allow for multiple players? Answer-"Yes"

5). Where will the unit need to be positioned? Answer-"Unit sits 7’ behind the golfer"

They said delivery will be by summer 2021 so hopefully that stays true. That will allow me plenty of time this winter/spring to research impact screens, overhead projectors, computer systems, turf and whatever else I'm going to need.