GSA Vistrak Beta Testing

[keither5150]

The case is $100 extra. The main difference between the Eagle and the LX. The LX has a case that can sit on the mat across from the player just like a skytrak or GC2. In this configuration, the LX will measure ball spin, spin axis, ball speed, LA, club speed, AOA, and HA. The accuracy of the HA will not be as good as the overhead unit. I will be able to report on the accuracy of the LX's HA this week. The cost of the LX case is $100 more than the Eagle case. The LX will have estimated club face and club path based on ball data. Please note, that nothing stops a guy from buying a eagle and LX and use them together to have the following measured. Ball speed, HA, LA, club speed, club path, face angle, AOA, total spin, spin axis. The overhead unit will have a nicer swing video to watch. It will be interesting what the swing video of the LX alone will look like. My future system..... LX plus Eagle overhead. The odd time that I need lefty righty…. I will move the LX into the Vcam position.... and we will loose spin detection and AOA. I will also be testing, if it is possible to hit overtop of the LX..... I did that a couple of times with the GC2. Flightscope, I can't remember if righty lefty is important to you or not.... I apologize but I can't keep everyone straight anymore.

Sorry to anyone who is trying to PM me..... My Private message box is overflowing and has been shut down.... Please direct any private messages to Keith @GSAgolf.com I have lots of room there. There will be a discord channel opening soon to all Beta testers. I will empty my message inbox soon once I import all of the contacts to my email. We were actually only hoping for about 10 beta testers...…. Oh well. I don't think that Martin will be saying no to anyone who wants to beta test. However the special beta testing pricing will be for a limited time.

My Alpha LX unit will arrive this week. I will be testing it alone and with the ceiling mounted Eagle unit.

[wbond]

keither5150 Has the unit and it's capabilities for the beta testing been finalized? It's hard to tell from all the comments, but it appears it won't fully match what was originally intended.

Vistrak measures club speed, club face angle, club path, deviation from sweet spot (horizontal). Ball data includes spin, spin axis, ball speed, HA, LA. Vistrak does all this with one camera. Please note that LA will not be as accurate as GSA’s multi camera systems.

[keither5150]

Wbond, Correct, the entry level unit does lack spin. LA is not measured on the entry level single camera unit. LA is set based on club selection. Similar to Optishot. In order to get measured LA, you will have to add a Vcam, VcamB, Or Vistrak LX to the entry level single camera unit. Code named Eagle. Of these 3 choices, the VcamB and LX will offer spin and spin axis along with LA. The regular Vcam will offer accurate LA but spin will be calculated. The LX will be tested later this week.

[wbond]

Trying to decipher the GSA webpage, it says the Eagle when mounted on the side will give you measured LA and spin. Could you use one of each, ceiling mounted and side mounted?

Also, will the Eagle have the green laser dot that's shown on the GSA page?

VisTrak Overhead mounted data: Ball speed and path, club speed, path and face angle.

Estimated spin and launch angle.

VisTrak Side mounted data : Ball speed, launch angle, ball path, club speed, club angle of attack and measured spin.

Estimated club face and club path.

Wbond, Correct, the entry level unit does lack spin. LA is not measured on the entry level single camera unit. LA is set based on club selection. Similar to Optishot. In order to get measured LA, you will have to add a Vcam, VcamB, Or Vistrak LX to the entry level single camera unit. Code named Eagle. Of these 3 choices, the VcamB and LX will offer spin and spin axis along with LA. The regular Vcam will offer accurate LA but spin will be calculated. The LX will be tested later this week.

[keither5150]

Trying to decipher the GSA webpage, it says the Eagle when mounted on the side will give you measured LA and spin. T

he Eagle and the LX are the same except for the case. We are actually just thinking of offering the LX case only.

Could you use one of each, ceiling mounted and side mounted?

Yes, that is exactly going to be my sim once I am done all of my testing.....AOA is something that will help my wood play a lot. The odd time that I need righty lefty play, I can move it the Vcam position and loose measured spin and AOA but I will have lefty righty play. I will also be testing if I can hit overtop of it.... I know some people do it with the GC2..... I will test this as well. Martin will be shipping my LX unit today or tomorrow.

Also, will the Eagle have the green laser dot that's shown on the GSA page?

That is the plan. I am trying to get Martin to use the existing overlay in TGC 2019 so when it says "Ready for swing" It will come from our control panel. When no ball is present, it will say "system not ready" . That is the plan, but down on the list of the things todo. The green laser will save people having to look up at the unit to see if it is ready.

VisTrak Overhead mounted data:

Ball speed and path, club speed, path and face angle.

Correct

Estimated spin and launch angle.

LA will be determined by club selection. In order to get measured LA, a vcam, vcamB or LX will need to be added.

VisTrak Side mounted data :

Ball speed, launch angle, ball path, club speed, club angle of attack and measured spin.

Correct LX ball spin will be tested this week.

Estimated club face and club path.

Accuracy of ball path will be tested this week.

[gunserotti]

Is the difference between VisTrak Surround and Surround B. The quality of the "Vistrak Camera?" In that this better camera (surround B) can measure ball spin?

Is it safe to say the "surround systems" will have the most accurate HA (horizontal angle measure). Thus making putting etc...the most accurate?

I must say the entire GSA website need serious help....Keen enthusiasts such as us...are having difficulty deciphering the information. Imagine someone who just stumbles across it looking for a potential golf sim.

I'm keen on this system because it would appear to me that the club data will be better than the Uneekor and the ball data will at least be on par.

[Fairways IGC]

gunserotti I am part of the test group and i have also been using GSA systems at my indoor facility for almost 4 years. I currently use CX surround and club cameras for all my bays. hopefully ill be assisting in sales and customer support in the US and through a new website, and online store, still under development. So let me provide you my input.

There will be some other differences for systems and ball spin. And there are multiple ways to achieve it. Higher frame rate, higher resolution, increased lighting is one way. I am working on a high power IR light module to replace the bright visible light currently.

YES! It is safe to say the surround systems will have the most accurate HA, LA and ball speed measurements. I have done testing on my CX systems that prove, properly calibrated the CX system is within a percent or 2 of actual. I did this by placing a rod of a known length, at a fixed LA and HA in the camera FOV and allow the system to read it as if it was the ball streak. Then simply verify the actual LA and HA match the actual reading of the inclimometer and protractor fial and make sure that actual "rod length"/"camera exposure time" = the measured speed. I did this for a range of HA and LA and got good results. GSA is the only system i know of that can provide this kind of proof.

I also have a uneekor system. My facility is a showroom partner with them so it has been interesting to compare. I will say I am 100% confident in the data from the GSA CX surround and club cameras because i have been able to verify it. And we are using it to get vistrak as accurate as possible, and i am casually comparing it to uneekor. but there will be natural limitations with a 1 camera vistrak system...at vistrak price point you cant go wrong and the fact its modular, meaning you can start with CX surround and add vistrak or vice versa is nice to break up payments or just pay for what you want.

Vistrak club data is on track to be on par with current GSA club cameras and at this point better than Uneekor based on my testing. Uneekor has the better ball spin and slo mo play back. But i believe the GSA vistrak that is planned to have ball spin will be able to match it and hopefully is available as a vistrak upgrade at later date.

[MyEaglePutt]

Hey Keith, few questions... , I had PX5 system with BCam Light which I recently liquidated a couple of soon to be obsolete components leaving me with CX2 surround (custom made mount). So as you can imagine I would like to leverage this setup for LA and wider FOV and add the Eagle.

With this setup, would I still have to do the stereo manual calibration or would I be able to mount the cameras on my custom mount at specific spacing, angle and height and use the standard (plug-and-play) calibration?

Being as the CX2 stereo would give me LA, I would just need to add an additional camera for measured spin correct? If so would I be able to purchase just a single camera for spin and mount that to my stereo custom mount?

For the Eagle, would that camera also just mount to my stereo custom mount or separately?

With this setup, would I only be losing AoA which requires LX floor mounted camera?

Do I keep existing IR lighting for Stereo, then add additional light for Eagle and Spin camera?

Thanks.

[MyEaglePutt]

Great, thanks Mike!

I would have no problem mounting the Eagle @3' and CX Stereo forward of that. Height is simple enough. Could you provide detailed measurements for CS camera mounting. Do you guys used fixed angle mounts for the cameras I can purchase? Really dont want to be bothered with manual calibration.

Also to clarify, I unfortunately let the bcam go when it was announced ball spin could be measured via a single camera. So could the Eagle be fitted with an additional camera for spin? Would that be the LX?

Thanks.

[Fairways IGC]

MyEaglePutt

I can definitely provide detailed measurements. give me some time to run through the default calibration table against how i build the CX and make sure it is all set. the cameras are set at the prescribed angle and then locked in place with loctite. However, I could fabricate a bracket at that angle so you would just have to mount the base of the camera flush to the bracket and then each camera off centerline. Call it a conversion kit for ease of installation.

Do you have a custom mount yet? If so what does it look like so i can get an idea of what the brackets will need to mount to. or would you be interested in a CX surround frame instead of your custom mount?

edit: Sorry, I forgot to answer second part of your question!

Right now the eagle is not intended to be fit with a second camera for spin. I believe in the future there will be an option for an upgraded camera and light module that will be able to measure spin with a single camera, but we want to get VisTrak completed first because everything will build on it. Likely the upgraded equipment will all fit is same case. The LX is not an eagle that captures spin. The LX is floor mounted, like the GC, it has a different lens and different light module. If you move the LX to the ceiling like Martin is saying you can, you must change the lens and add an LED spot light, and then you get the same features as the eagle. meaning you lose ball spin again.

let me know if you have anymore questions. we are all trying to stay focused and get a good product to market. the capabilities a features of these products will grow. and the model and intent is to allow customers get in at an entry level to add on and grow with the development as they desire for these features and budget allows. and do it with maximum use of existing equipment and software for them.

[MyEaglePutt]

Appreciate that, measurements and correct angle would suffice, thought you guys may ave already had something, offer is much appreciated though. I'm a bit in limbo, I may just go with VisTrack VcamB and sell CX2 Stereo setup, would really like to have measured spin. But I have another question on that, will post that separately...

Thanks!

[wbond]

keither5150 Are you fairly certain at this point that GSA won't be able to get everything measured from a single ceiling mounted unit as originally intended?

Orignial plan:
Vistrak measures club speed, club face angle, club path, deviation from sweet spot (horizontal). Ball data includes spin, spin axis, ball speed, HA, LA. Vistrak does all this with one camera. Please note that LA will not be as accurate as GSA’s multi camera systems

[keither5150]

The current camera will not measure spin as a ceiling mount. We will be testing spin from the side in the LX position later this week. My LX unit will be arriving Aug 1 or 2nd. We have deviated from the original plan a bit. Once all of the different sims are in production. We will revisit the single camera theory. We have one camera in mind that would do the trick. The problem is that this camera can't send it's data in real time. That means we would be building a robust onboard computer to handle the heavy lifting.

[flightscoperick]

Are we still looking at different VisTrak LM or just the LX for both as mentioned earlier.

[keither5150]

I am hoping that we go to one case. It will make life easier. Plus, if a guy changes his mind and wants to mount on the floor.... he can do that.

[keither5150]

JackedUpSwing Generally GSA products have little to no misreads. You can check out some of my videos under Keither5150. In the past the only time that I would have a no read is when you see that internet connection symbol at the bottom right of the screen. Over the years, Martin has added numerous features to limit the amount of misreads. It used to be that if a ball rolled into the FOV of the cameras, you only had a few seconds to retrieve it. With Vistrak, the balls can be all over the place, the shot will not be triggered until the ball leaves the hitting area.

[Bubba22]

Keep up the good work. Keep us posted on the results. Focus has always been the issue with Martin and GSA. Appreciate the updates.

[keither5150]

Yeah, Martin is as sharp as they come. Sometimes really bright people are a little quirky . Mike is a sharp guy as well. A suitable IR lighting solution doesn't exist....so he is building one..... I never thought that I would be the good looking dumb one in the group.

[Fairways IGC]

keither5150 we will let the people decide who the best looking one of the group is.

[jerry3]

keither5150 do you anticipate that you guys will ever launch an overhead unit that directly measures club speed, club face angle, club path, spin, spin axis, ball speed, HA, LA?

[keither5150]

A little while back, we went on a search for cameras that will be able to handle high FPS and sharp images. We found one that would be financially viable but that camera couldn't send the data in real time.....so it is useless in it's current state. So we can either convince them to build us a stripped down version and put a little onboard computer in the case to do the heavy lifting or we can look elsewhere for suitable cameras. All three of us really want to do the single camera thing. One camera that we looked at could do close to 6000 FPS at 480p. That is 10 times the FPS at better quality than what we are using. This type of camera can film a bullet fly through the air. With a camera like that, you could probably read the logo and ball # at high spin speeds.

Our plans are to revisit the single camera does all things once we have all the other Vistrak products to market. I will be receiving the Vistrak LX on Thursday and will be using it in conjunction with the overhead unit. I will also be testing its capabilities as a standalone product.

We had high hopes that the current single camera vistrak would do all things. We spent close to 2 months trying to get spin to work along with club data. We were somewhat deflated when reality set in. It was too difficult to set up the camera for ball spin and club data at the same time. This only became evident on higher speed shots.

Hopefully testing on the other products will go a little faster.

[jerry3]

keither5150 I think the end goal should be to get measured data with all hardware on the ceiling, whether that be a more expensive single camera or 2 cameras. With Uneekor shaking things up right now the bar has really been raised, the only downside I see from Uneekor right now seems to be the marked ball issue.

Also in regards to your Vistrak LX it would be really cool if this can compete with the GCquad. That's what I use currently and would be interested to see how it stacks up. If you need a tester to compare vs quad I'd be interested in helping!

[flightscoperick]

The Eagle is sold with or with out spotlight. If you need the spotlight why sell without. If you buy with out spotlight what does it do or don’t do. If you have lots of lighting in your sim room do you need the spotlight. GSA sight can be a bit confusing.

[keither5150]

I will ask Martin to update everything to the latest information....sorry

[MyEaglePutt]

Regarding the soon to be available beta versions that give you spin.

Whats the difference between VisTrak VcamB setup vs. Eagle combined with VisTrak LX?

Both setups seem to offer the same features.

[Fairways IGC]

The VcamB is two cameras with a flash module. It will take images of the ball to measure LA and spin from these images. The LX uses the same single high speed camera as the eagle to capture the images for the LA and spin data. LX has a different lens and lighting than the eagle.

[MyEaglePutt]

Was really looking for functional differences. Correct me if I'm wrong, but functionally they seem to do the same thing and provide the same level of accuracy. What benefits does vcamb have to justify added cost. All I can think of is placement of unit, lthe latter is farther away maybe allowing for lefty and righty, but still floor mounted.

[MyEaglePutt]

I just received some info from Martin on this - The Eagle and LX currently cannot be used together, two of the usb3 high speed camera's "probaly wont function together on the same PC"... In case anyone was thinking of going this rout, I was...

Also as for the VisTrak VcamB, it is using the previous model usb2 cameras, which allows them to function with the Eagle (usb 3 camera).

[keither5150]

All vistraks are sold with the cases displayed on the site. The reason that the Eagle is sold with or without the spotlight is that some current GSA users will have more than a few halogens and IR lights. The Eagle will work with Halogen lighting. It will work better and be cooler with the LED spotlight.