Handicap Index and *** Optishot Tour

[psgolfer]

The websystem used for calculations is spot on I agree, and definitely no need to change it.


My only problem with it is that you say you want the ratings to remain correct to the course and tees, but I just dont think they are, I do not believe that this course is in effect a Par 74.7.

In real life it may well be, but this rating is calculated not only on length but on difficulty presented by obstacles including rough, lie, bunkers etc etc.

In Optishot these obstacles do not have the same severe effects as they do in real life in my opinion. Rough would hamper my shots far more in real life than on Optishot, as would fairway bunkers. All I do on optishot is take an extra club to counter the reduced distance.

In terms of distance again Optishot ensures we all get really good contacts so distances are pretty consistent so I think that nearly negates any of the extra difficulty associated with the increased distance of the back tees, other than having to again maybe hit an higher club.

Personally I dont think anything about the course settings, be it tees, rough or bunker settings really effects the score you get on Optishot, as its just a matter of selecting a longer club. You dont have to worry about getting clean ball contact etc, because your'e guaranteed it by the software, so no worries about lie etc.

The only things that makes a course more difficult are green speeds and wind.

Green Speed and Wind are not factors that are considered when deciding rating of a course.

So I still maintain that all courses play off the standard par 72 (if not lower) and so a 0 handicapper such as myself now on Opti, should have to hit 72 to get a handicap par, not hit 74.7

John, this is how the handicap system, there is a slope and rating assigned based on the tee's played. Now that being said, the slope and rating on a golf course doesn't change based on wind, rough or green speed.

The calculation is done by either the USGA or RCGA. These are the 2 governing bodies of the game of golf.

For example, I played torrey pines Monday (north) and Tuesday (south). If you watched any of the TV coverage over the weekend, you would of seen that the rough was brutal, in fact if you hit in the rough, it was essentially a one shot penalty. But the slope and rating did not change, it's what's called "rub of the green", sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. That being said, I don't get to post a score with a higher slope and rating, I post what I shot.

So if your good at reading opti greens and judging how to chip, your going to shoot under par, so therefore your going to have a lower index. This is the whole premise under the handicap system or also referred to a equitable stroke control (google it, the USGA has some great information on the handicap system).

[CatMan]

My 2.5 cents... I don't think anything is wrong with the handicap system. My goal is to improve to a "0" cap and get on the Pro Tour. Then let the best man win. I look at the handicap tournaments as Q-School. If your cap goes above "0" on the pro tour too high or consistently then back to Q-School you go. IMHO

cool idea KNB, like your attitude

[wbond]

I wouldn't say it always going to be easier. They have a greater chance to win occasionally because of larger swings in scores, however, over time the lower handicap will win more often then not due to more consistent play around their HC number. In the leagues I've been in, this is generally how it goes. In one league, we played crossover flight matches and I had to give a stroke per hole. The guy shot 6 under his average that day and of course, I got smoked. It was his lowest round in 3 yrs in the league.

I've been playing competitive golf for a long time. Fact number 1, you will never beat the pencil........that is, it's always going to be easier for a higher handicapper to beat a lower handicapper. When your giving away strokes, it's just the way it is. But as far as this system goes, I think it's pretty bang on. Everyone has an equal chance to win and place in the top 5. I'm an 8.3 in the real world, but I've never shot under par on optishot.

Jason, I think you told me your a 12 in real life and you shoot under par all the time. That's why your a minus 7 and I'm a zero. If we were to join up on the golf course, I'd give you 5 strokes. In opti world your giving me 7 strokes.

Personally, I think this system levels the playing field for everyone.

[KNBGOLFER]

My 2.5 cents... I don't think anything is wrong with the handicap system. My goal is to improve to a "0" cap and get on the Pro Tour. Then let the best man win. I look at the handicap tournaments as Q-School. If your cap goes above "0" on the pro tour too high or consistently then back to Q-School you go. IMHO

[JohnMeyer]

The websystem used for calculations is spot on I agree, and definitely no need to change it.

As Catman says all a ratings change would effect would everyone's cap would be 2/3 strokes to the good.

The differences between all the players would stay the same (give or take 1 stroke), so related scores would be unaffected

My only problem with it is that you say you want the ratings to remain correct to the course and tees, but I just dont think they are, I do not believe that this course is in effect a Par 74.7.

In real life it may well be, but this rating is calculated not only on length but on difficulty presented by obstacles including rough, lie, bunkers etc etc.

In Optishot these obstacles do not have the same severe effects as they do in real life in my opinion. Rough would hamper my shots far more in real life than on Optishot, as would fairway bunkers. All I do on optishot is take an extra club to counter the reduced distance.

In terms of distance again Optishot ensures we all get really good contacts so distances are pretty consistent so I think that nearly negates any of the extra difficulty associated with the increased distance of the back tees, other than having to again maybe hit an higher club.

Personally I dont think anything about the course settings, be it tees, rough or bunker settings really effects the score you get on Optishot, as its just a matter of selecting a longer club. You dont have to worry about getting clean ball contact etc, because your'e guaranteed it by the software, so no worries about lie etc.

The only things that makes a course more difficult are green speeds and wind.

Green Speed and Wind are not factors that are considered when deciding rating of a course.

So I still maintain that all courses play off the standard par 72 (if not lower) and so a 0 handicapper such as myself now on Opti, should have to hit 72 to get a handicap par, not hit 74.7



However I too like the fact that the scorecards look a bit more real, but using the higher ratings will see everyone playing of a cap that is too difficult for them. I know if we played these courses in real life we wouldnt hit the scores we do on Optishot, so therefore the courses must in effect play easier on Optishot.

If thats the case to use the real life difficulty rating of the course must be incorrect

Having spoke with Hoganwoods their league use non standard ratings all the time, as they know the courses don't play true to life.

This change would not fix the issue of making it easier for Jason to win, far from it, and I dont think that was what he was asking. He was asking for handicap that allowed him if he played well to shoot close to par. That for me is the purpose of a handicap, to level people to par. At the moment we level people to Course Rating, which is often too high hence whey people caps are too hard for them, and also why it brings inconsistencies in peoples caps.

Just my views, in terms of who wins each event it shouldn't really make any difference, but I would vote to change Ratings to Course Par as I think that truly reflects the Rating of the course on Optishot.

[psgolfer]

I've been playing competitive golf for a long time. Fact number 1, you will never beat the pencil........that is, it's always going to be easier for a higher handicapper to beat a lower handicapper. When your giving away strokes, it's just the way it is. But as far as this system goes, I think it's pretty bang on. Everyone has an equal chance to win and place in the top 5. I'm an 8.3 in the real world, but I've never shot under par on optishot.

Jason, I think you told me your a 12 in real life and you shoot under par all the time. That's why your a minus 7 and I'm a zero. If we were to join up on the golf course, I'd give you 5 strokes. In opti world your giving me 7 strokes.

Personally, I think this system levels the playing field for everyone.

[braycobb]

Oh yeah. I'm aware and I think the system is fine. It's just hard to wrap your mind around sometimes.

I'm with you. In real life I'm a 10 handicap. To be a -3 here blows me away.....and my scores are showing it. I'm struggling bad knowing I have to shoot under par to post a score of par.

[CatMan]

I disagree with the premise that its easier for high handicappers to make par than a low to make birdies. if you watch my rounds I really have to scramble to make par because im rarely on in regulation and they feel like birdies to me. what is true is that my gap to shooting par is larger so I can improve on my scores more rapidly. whereas low handies have a much smaller space to improve... you can only get so good no one is going to shoot an 18. I think this is why it feels tilted toward the high index. as long as a player tries his best to improve it should even out over time. I think its as fair as you can get it. of course that's assuming nobody really wants to win by sandbagging.

I agree,

We should see slight changes to caps as players improve on their game and that is what we want.. As players hit more greens in Regulations we will see a change, When players are able to scramble better again another slight change, Putting is a huge factor, again another slight change... Usually we can link Major changes to something that is generated outside of the norm.. Which the Index System is not responsible for..

All good stuff...

[tb_tyler]

Understand tb. However, that is the way a real USGA handicap works also.

Oh yeah. I'm aware and I think the system is fine. It's just hard to wrap your mind around sometimes.

[mikerochipshot]

I disagree with the premise that its easier for high handicappers to make par than a low to make birdies. if you watch my rounds I really have to scramble to make par because im rarely on in regulation and they feel like birdies to me. what is true is that my gap to shooting par is larger so I can improve on my scores more rapidly. whereas low handies have a much smaller space to improve... you can only get so good no one is going to shoot an 18. I think this is why it feels tilted toward the high index. as long as a player tries his best to improve it should even out over time. I think its as fair as you can get it. of course that's assuming nobody really wants to win by sandbagging.

[braycobb]

Understand tb. However, that is the way a real USGA handicap works also.

[tb_tyler]

Mentally it's hard when the handicap index is formed based in relation to the course rating but our handicap score is still in relation to actual par for the course. It's fair for everyone but it's hard to get used to mentally.

[braycobb]

Concur Cat!

[CatMan]

I think it important that we keep the slope and rating correct to the course and tees, raising the caps really doesn't fix Jason's issues, everyone's cap will be to par 72, so eventually everyone's cap will be about 3 strokes more, doesn't really make an impact on outcome in Jason's case...

It also doesn't impact any players from making Pro Tour because its base on 0 handicap Index. I kind of like higher score as opposed to lower score its more realistic..

If we where to play a course with an easier rating say 72 slope125 , we would see players going low..and yes maybe even under par...

I'm in no hurry to change the Cap system, if its not broke don't fix it. Jason issues are not related to handicap Index, Sorry Jason

[JohnMeyer]

Macro Buttons dont work properly so please ignore them, works once but subsequent rounds it does wrong. My bad