Fairplay during tournaments ......... and use of rewinds.

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  • keither5150
    Champion Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 1364

    #1

    Fairplay during tournaments ......... and use of rewinds.

    Let me start by saying that the vast majority ( about 95-99% ) of players on the tour follow the rules when it comes to the use of rewinds. That being said, everyone needs to know that there are consequences for continued misuse of the rewind feature. The first offense will result in the player being put on probation. Probation requires the player to play live with another player during tournament rounds or record their round with webcam and post to YouTube. The second offence will result in a one year ban from the tour. The third offence will result in a lifetime ban from the tour.

    We will most certainly give any player the benefit of the doubt when it comes to investigating alleged misuse of rewinds. I have a system that will need the occasional rewind. My misreads usually consist of less than 1 degree LA or most recently, I had one where I was putting and the putt went across the green at about 4 times the speed. I have noticed that ProTee users sometime will have a 20 degree HA..... an obvious misread. Some of the launch monitors will sometimes show a severe lack of spin. We all know that a full 7 iron will not have 1000 rpm backspin. Those are the easy ones to detect. Sometimes the sim will have a slight misread on a well struck ball. Many have reported that they used the rewind feature when their 9 iron went 190 yards when the furthest they can hit it is 155. People have the right to take a rewind in an instance like this. When investigating these, we can look at the majority of the players 9 iron shots and see if it is legit.

    When a player misuses the rewind system, it usually sticks out like a sore thumb..... Any instances that are even the least bit questionable.... the player will be given the benefit of the doubt.
    When we see 6 tee shots on a par 3 over water and the 6th shot is 7 mph faster than the others...... the player may be out of line.. I can go as far as manually input the data into my control panel..... and duplicate the shot on TGC. I can see that the player had 5 shots in the water before getting one on the green. In this case the player scored par on the hole. LA's and HA's were consistent with other shots with that club. This type of behavior is not acceptable and unfair to everyone else who plays on the tour.

    Mthunt ,Bubba22 and myself (Keither5150) are on the tour committee and ProTee has asked us to handle any disputes or disagreements regarding fair play. Feel free to PM anyone of us with any concerns regarding fair play on the Tour. We are also responsible for picking and testing the courses..... with some help of a few other power users. I personally don't want to do any work on this committee that doesn't feel like fun...... like testing courses. And looking at people's data and matching it to their scorecards does seem like work.

    Recently we had a player that had phantom putts show up in data. Many times a second shot would be recorded exactly 4 seconds later. It was usually 0.1 mph faster than the previous putt. ProTee was made aware of the issue and has fixed the problem. I myself have seen a duplicate shot in my data.... in these cases, the data is identical to the previous shot. So it's not a bad idea to check your tour data every so often to make sure that it is accurate.

    We must also not be too quick to judge anyone. A while back somebody asked why I was hitting until I was happy in a tournament round..... long story short, he failed to look at my scorecard in which I had a ten on that hole. And that would explain the 4 tee shots. I wasn't cheating..... I was just playing lousy.

    ProTee has done a fantastic job with setting up the Tour and the Tour website. They are leaving it up to the players to police the tour. They are far too busy working on great new features for TGC and the Tour.

    Please make sure that if you play on the Tour that "Shot Recording " is turned ON as it is a tour requirement. TGC and TGC tour stats and handicaps are a great tool to gauge your improvement. A player who cheats is ruining that gauge of improvement and is really hurting themselves more than anyone else.

  • Joko
    Advanced Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 426

    #2
    Thanks guys for taking the time to do all of this.

    Comment

    • mthunt
      Ultimate Member
      • Aug 2014
      • 4750

      #3
      I had my first rewind ever today. I hit hit a bunker shot on glen abbey that shot right on 11. Only 3 lines on the gc2 registered data and the ones that registered were off. I've never seen that. I decided to hit rewind still f'd up the hole. Now I can't say I've never never had a rewind. Lol.

      Guys, if you're hitting rewind, it's pretty obvious. The recorded data shows the same distance on the shot. If the data is similar to the previous one or you have multiple instances expect a PM from Keith.

      It's only for fun. Why cheat?
      Last edited by mthunt; 12-14-2016, 12:39 PM.
      My Courses:
      World Par 3's by mthunt
      Toronto GC (L) mthunt
      Burlington G&CC by mthunt
      Weston G&CC by mthunt
      London Hunt Club L mthunt
      Park CC Lidar mthunt
      Sunningdale GC Robinson L
      Sunningdale GC Thompson L
      Muirfield Village (liDAR) First Ever Lidar course
      Country Club of Castle Pines (liDAR)
      The Sanctuary GC ProTee L
      The National GC L mthunt
      Mississaugua GC L mthunt
      Shaughnessy G&CC L mthunt
      Markland Woods CC mthunt
      Hidden Lake Old L mthunt
      Magna GC L mthunt
      Barrie CC L mthunt
      mthunt Range

      Comment

      • Mxwoodman
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2014
        • 230

        #4
        I know the issues the different systems have and it would be great if we didn't have rewind enabled. Playing a different tournament on the other site I had a ball fall of the tee and it counted and rewinds are turned off but oh well it doesn't matter that much.

        I had one rewind and I wasn't really sure I wanted to but it was the first time I ever let a buddy join me in a tournament round and I set everything up and he hit went up and hit my ball on the first hole with a wedge before I knew what he was doing and he didn't know it was ready to play. But I have no reason to cheat and really cheat for what? I agree its just for fun

        But I vote just disable the rewind and let things work it self out but I don't know how many times other systems really need rewind, my hardware zero at least for me, but like my buddy hitting my ball and the ball falling off the tee maybe but still doesn't feel right I think I'll just take the stoke or stokes and move on then there are no questions about it.

        Comment


        • mthunt
          mthunt commented
          Editing a comment
          On the other site I putted from the fringe in a tournament and the ball went a hundred yards backwards. That would need a rewind. I also play with a buddy that once rolled a ball by the gc2 after I had the light green and it registered a shot.

          I know ProTee needs rewinds. ProTee is TGC. Rewinds are staying. At least we can see every rewind. A guy had 20 one round. We see that.

        • Jwheels9876
          Jwheels9876 commented
          Editing a comment
          20 rewinds? Lol, that's the friend you golf with that only shoots 4 shots worse than you at the end meanwhile he took 8 mulligans and you didn't take any then he says he could have broken 90 if it wasn't for his bad putting. We all have that friend

        • Mxwoodman
          Mxwoodman commented
          Editing a comment
          I know guys on the other site I had the putt from the fringe and didn't know I was on the green and chipped and have the ball go backwards 60-70 yards - I know we need the rewinds and I know each system has issues, but really I was just trying to say why cheat and for what and you guys spend a lot of time and effort trying to police it and that sucks you have to, but really there are many ways someone could cheat I guess I don't understand why and were all just doing this to have fun.
      • Jwheels9876
        Champion Member
        • Jul 2016
        • 1286

        #5
        😂😂😂

        A couple of rounds ago I took a warmup swing and clipped the ball and it went like 40 yards off the tee on a par 5 lol... I wanted to use that rewind feature so bad but I didn't want to be " The cheater" ... Besides, I'm the idiot for doing that...
        Last edited by Jwheels9876; 12-14-2016, 04:58 AM.

        Comment


        • Jwheels9876
          Jwheels9876 commented
          Editing a comment
          Of course.... that's why I don't play in tournaments 😂...

        • mthunt
          mthunt commented
          Editing a comment
          So you aren't going to play in TGC tournaments?

        • Jwheels9876
          Jwheels9876 commented
          Editing a comment
          I've been playing in them, I meant IRL. I know I stink so why use a rewind when there's a chance my second shot could be worse than my first
      • keither5150
        Champion Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 1364

        #6
        I just noticed your shame photo.... funny. I put together a little video about looking at shot data after somebody sent me a PM. This video was made before I upgraded to the PX5 , so backspin numbers are wonky as there was only a general adjustment way back when.
         

        Comment

        • aja
          Super Member
          • Aug 2014
          • 689

          #7
          Could I suggest that you simply add the suspect strokes to the tournament score. Understand that you don't want to be playing "policeman" but if you are uncovering these situations no point in using "kid gloves" to deal with them.

          Comment


          • keither5150
            keither5150 commented
            Editing a comment
            You would think that the fact that anyone can look at the data would be enough of a deterrent. Like I said above 95-99% of the players are following the rules.
        • Mickey
          Advanced Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 307

          #8
          One rewind every 2 or 3 rounds and it's always for the same thing - phantom shot. I'll be fiddling with the scout cam and the ball jumps forward 1 yard for no apparent reason. Obvious rewind.

          Comment


          • keither5150
            keither5150 commented
            Editing a comment
            That's weird. And that's what rewinds are for... You would hate to come in second place because of that one stroke. I remember one time I had a really good drive but in the game, the ball only rolled about 4 yards. As I was bitching about wasting a good drive.... I didn't notice that the ball rolled into the FOV of the trigger camera..... 4 seconds later, another 1 yard shot and I could only rewind once. F bombs were dropped that day for sure.
        • Jwheels9876
          Champion Member
          • Jul 2016
          • 1286

          #9
          I think a bigger issue are the people who don't even record their shots, no? Then you have no idea what they're doing... I mean if fake money and standing mean that much too them then what can you do

          Comment

          • keither5150
            Champion Member
            • Aug 2015
            • 1364

            #10
            It's crazy not to have shot recording on..... It's such a great tool when you want to work on your game...... You forgot to mention the virtual trophies.

            Comment


            • Jwheels9876
              Jwheels9876 commented
              Editing a comment
              Virtual Trophies? I'm turning off shot recording as we speak I didn't even know you could win those, and I'll most likely never win one

            • jlettgolf
              jlettgolf commented
              Editing a comment
              I normally don't comment , because honestly I just don't care , but to be fair not everyone gets on these forums that much and study what settings they need to change (me being one of those) and i'm sure the Jwheels9876 guy is referring to me in the "not recording their shots" deal because I won a tournament and he commented about it when I was leading ,, I had no idea that the shots wasn't recorded or that they were recorded or even what that meant and I didn't know you could take "rewinds" (which is ridiculous to me that you can do that in a tournament, sim golf or not),, I see it as the tournaments fault really , when you enter a tournament all these settings should be set up as SOP , not where a user as to go in a change these things. So to sit back and say people would cheat for "virtual trophies" is a little silly wouldn't you say?? just a little? , I don't think cheating is a big problem on here I think its more a lot of newcomers just don't have the correct knowledge of setting their system up to the correct settings (me being one of them)

            • Joko
              Joko commented
              Editing a comment
              I agree mostly. I have had that moment where I want to rewind a drive, not because of scoring, but because I want to practice, and it's inherently easier to practice on a simulator.

              But yes, this is a new frontier for many. And also the technology isn't perfect. Sometimes rewinds are needed due to imperfect technology. And sometimes humans misuse it.

              Ultimately I don't think anyone is rewinding over and over to win a virtual trophy. The problem would enter if we started having really competitive matches that could be won or lost by a stroke or two. But again, we are playing with imperfect technology and different systems.

              Enjoy. Be annoyed. Have fun. And be annoyed. Simulating golf at its finest.
              Last edited by Joko; 12-29-2016, 04:41 AM.
          • aeroburner
            Extreme Member
            • May 2016
            • 1015

            #11
            I have put in the Groups schedule for tournaments play so we can add more days to that schedule and group up i will be playing my tournaments with friends if at all possible its just a heck of a lot more fun to do and then rewinds are not a factor
            Last edited by aeroburner; 12-14-2016, 08:59 PM.

            Comment


            • keither5150
              keither5150 commented
              Editing a comment
              I agree that it's more fun to play with other people. However, it does take more time. When playing with ghost balls, I can finish a tournament round in about 40 min.

            • aeroburner
              aeroburner commented
              Editing a comment
              i know but life is to short to rush everything if I rush anything its my day at work to get home and relax haha
          • mthunt
            Ultimate Member
            • Aug 2014
            • 4750

            #12
            If people don't have shot recording on their scores won't count. It's a requirement.
            My Courses:
            World Par 3's by mthunt
            Toronto GC (L) mthunt
            Burlington G&CC by mthunt
            Weston G&CC by mthunt
            London Hunt Club L mthunt
            Park CC Lidar mthunt
            Sunningdale GC Robinson L
            Sunningdale GC Thompson L
            Muirfield Village (liDAR) First Ever Lidar course
            Country Club of Castle Pines (liDAR)
            The Sanctuary GC ProTee L
            The National GC L mthunt
            Mississaugua GC L mthunt
            Shaughnessy G&CC L mthunt
            Markland Woods CC mthunt
            Hidden Lake Old L mthunt
            Magna GC L mthunt
            Barrie CC L mthunt
            mthunt Range

            Comment

            • MainStGolf
              Advanced Member
              • Feb 2016
              • 458

              #13
              Why don't we just say that we need to disclose rewinds. I think I may have taken one maybe two that I can even remember. I have far too many no reads, but rarely use the rewind function with the SkyTrak. Just make it where we post in that tournament forum the situation with the rewind. I know a lot of you do that anyway.

              Comment

              • Stingreye
                Advanced Member
                • Aug 2016
                • 489

                #14
                My only rewinds were before I knew what a rewind was when I hit "R" on the keyboard. Much more common to get no read for me but usually I assume that's because I got lazy and didn't check for the green light. (no GC2 reading and no TGC reading). I did have 2-3 times when playing live that my shot was recorded by the GC2 LCD but nothing happened in the game so I just rehit. I am assuming that if it didn't move the ball in the game that the "shot recording" would not have recorded the shot.

                I think I have mentioned this before but as soon as you start a tournament. Shot recording starts. So before I knew that, I would start up the tournament,hit escape, and start my warm up shots using the GC2 readout on the LCD. When I looked later, it counted all the shots. Its pretty obvious because you can see me go through several putts, then wedges, then 7 irons, then drivers.

                So make sure you warm up before you enter the menu for the tournament.

                Comment

                • Stingreye
                  Advanced Member
                  • Aug 2016
                  • 489

                  #15
                  I tracked down my shots (note rewind was off but I had just finished the first 18 holes of the tournament and was getting ready for the 2nd set and so I hit escape to try and work through a few shots before starting the second round). The shots were recorded:


                  Shot 88 was my last putt of the previous one, then you can see where I practiced several shots before finally returning to the Tee on shot 123 and starting my round. As I said above, all shots are recorded once you start a tournament even if the menu is brought up with the escape key and you start hitting shots.
                  124 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye I9 283 HeavyRough 108.7 -5 20 -5.3 -414 4470
                  123 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 145.1 9 6 44.1 995 1026
                  122 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 147.2 2 12 -8 -366 2609
                  121 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 145.7 -2 13 -48.5 -1198 1060
                  120 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 146.8 2 13 -36.9 -1230 1639
                  119 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 151.2 -2 12 5.3 251 2713
                  118 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 147.4 4 12 -17.4 -710 2266
                  117 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 125.6 2 13 -42.2 -466 514
                  116 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 147.5 5 12 10.5 559 3018
                  115 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 130.6 9 1 19.4 3067 8710
                  114 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 147.6 10 15 9.5 453 2712
                  113 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 141.2 6 5 -40 -1227 1463
                  112 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 144.8 -3 10 20.6 949 2527
                  111 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 148.9 4 15 33.2 2439 3727
                  110 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 129 5 14 -51.3 -319 256
                  109 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 74.1 -2 44 -7 -770 6277
                  108 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 72.3 -1 46 -1.2 -122 5868
                  107 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 67.8 -4 41 0.3 38 7429
                  106 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 64.2 -4 44 1.1 95 4999
                  105 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 87.4 -10 9 -3.9 -271 3980
                  104 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 61.2 -3 43 -9.6 -762 4510
                  103 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 63.9 -9 39 -2.8 -276 5643
                  102 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 116.4 2 15 20 2000 5497
                  101 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 119.6 -1 18 3.6 257 4091
                  100 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 121.6 0 11 19 1432 4160
                  99 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 105.3 0 14 17.8 855 2665
                  98 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 103.3 0 16 5 234 2679
                  97 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 120.7 1 18 11.7 735 3549
                  96 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 115.3 2 17 15.8 860 3040
                  95 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.7 -2 1 0 0 0
                  94 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.8 2 1 0 0 0
                  93 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.2 -5 1 0 0 0
                  92 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.1 -12 0 0 0 0
                  91 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.4 -6 1 0 0 0
                  90 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.4 -4 1 0 0 0
                  89 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye DR 417 TEE 2.4 2 2 0 0 0
                  88 ICE Cream Challenge Stingreye PT 2 Green 4 0 1 0 0 1

                  Comment


                  • keither5150
                    keither5150 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    No worries..... we all used to warm up the same.... for me it was 9 irons, then 8,7 6. 4 or 5 drives and then onto the tournament round.. We soon found out that it recorded those shots. And I think that we all stopped warming up on the tour round..... I now go to the range. I had a few times where I paused the game to check my control panel for the error. So I hit a couple to make sure that all is good. Unpause the game and find out that the shots were recorded. That was during beta testing so .....lesson learned. If I work on control panel adjustments that require testing.... best to back right out of the game. Your extra shots are an obvious warm up. Good to let everyone know that warm up is for the range.
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