Does Skytrak putting suck that bad or am I that bad?

[dborden0]

It freaking kills me playing TGC tournament and putting for birdie and end up quadruple bogeying holes. I know I'm not the best putter in the world, but it just seems like putting is all over the board. Knocking short puts off the green, or long puts going nowhere.... I almost threw my putter into the screen during my last round I was so pissed. It would actually make me feel better knowing that I just suck and that it isn't the Skytak.

[docsmilez]

It seems that we are all in agreement that having a Zero HA putting mode option would be a good thing for all platforms. I don't think it will make much difference in scores, if it really does then you have the option to turn it on. Seems like a win win situation and I'm all for it.

[DirtyGarry24]

I'm with you doscmilez. I think scores will drop minimally with frustration levels dropping greatly.

[BadEddieKit]

Agreed.. It seems to be the best option available.

[DirtyGarry24]

The mean of 5.5R to 5.9R just indicates the test track wasn't aligned with the Skytrak properly but doesn't otherwise tell us much.

FaultyClubs - You're doing it again brother. I'm starting to see a pattern here. Blind accusations aren't helpful.

FYI - TGC users set their own stimp. My putts were in the 8 - 10 foot range. Please don't tell me that I don't know my IRL green speeds too.

Question for you, can any of us ST users set up our systems correctly? There are many ST users complaining about right misses when putting (weekly). Are we all so ignorant? I'd like to know if you are just accusing me or all of us lowly ST users? Furthermore, what's the name of your pony here? I don't remember seeing a FaultyClubs on the TGC leaderboards.

[keither5150]

Difficult compared to GC2 or ST....yes... I could probably do it in 2-3 hours. Mounting 3 cameras and run your cables. Once installed, download software. I could calibrate in about 20 minutes. Newbies could triple their time because you will have to do some reading to understand everything.

I did have a ST side by side with my sim. All data was really consistent between the two with exception of HA and SA. HA was out by as much as 2-3 degrees at times which lead to very different ball flight. ST is a great product for the dollar and really simple to setup. GSA is a great product and extremely accurate. However, it is not plug and play. GSA's cameras are accurate within less than 1/10 of a degree or mph. The mat is accurate within 0.65 degrees for face angle and path. They would have to add more sensors within the same area to make it more accurate. I had a golf pro hit on my sim and he was shocked how well it displays the shapes of different shots. He still loves his TM though.

[DirtyGarry24]

Definitely keep you in mind if I decide to go that route.

[DirtyGarry24]

ProTee United - what's the next step here? Testing? Create a poll thread?

[awisnia]

My most important question is : What has actually changed in the last few months - or is this really an issue for a Sociologist??!!

I looked at a lot of tour data related to putting when playing with case designs. I downloaded from the tour, sorted by club and date, then looked at HA's and other points to confirm that the beta test guys had no change from their pre-FMJ performance. There was enough data - in my opinion - to be statistically significant. A few of the putting results are below. (mid-Jan '17 and older with older to the right) I'd encourage others to download recorded tour putts and do similar analysis.

Also below are all the quotes of "test results" that I could find in this thread. (not cg2 - but those are appreciated.) Most seem to show a sigma of less than 1 degree - albeit sometimes biased away from the zero line. Frankly, I don't think it's enough data and is certainly not blind-testing. FaultyClubs makes a good point that it's alignment (so aim at something else?) as do others that it's "not that bad". Some here have also described rounds of near-perfect putting in the past, yet are now convinced there is a crisis...what has changed?

Is it possible we've got a bit of mass-hysteria here?

To get a better comparison with the other tests, I took all the speeds greater than 4.5 and less than 5.5 and called it 5 mph. Did similar to get a 4 mph grouping. Results are:
5 MPH = (Mean = 5.5R, Sd = 1.2)
4 MPH = (Mean = 5.9R, Sd = 1.9)
These are relatively long putts. 4 mph is around 10-12 feet at tournament stimps for example. If one hit a hundred perfectly straight 10 foot putts you would expect about 2/3 of them to wander about within an error circle of about 3.8 degrees. And the remaining third to fall within an error circle of roughly 10 degrees (with most of those fitting within 7.5 degree circle). These are the random errors the Skytrak would be adding on top of whatever errors the user is making. It would be interesting to see shorter putts based on 2 and 3 mph data for comparison.
The mean of 5.5R to 5.9R just indicates the test track wasn't aligned with the Skytrak properly but doesn't otherwise tell us much.

Well, i just did some quick testing putting down alignment rods using both putting correction on and off and at various lengths.

Shot Correction ON
3' Putts-HA of 2,2,0,0,2
6' Putts-HA of 1,0,1,2,1
10' Putts-HA of 0,1,0,1,1
15' Putts-HA of 0,0,0,0,0

Shot Correction ON but i moved the ball 1.5" away from the unit
10" Putts-HA of 1,1,1,1,1

Shot Correction ON but i moved the ball 1.5" closer to the unit
10' Putts-HA of 1,1,3,0,0

Shot Correction OFF
4' Putts-HA 7.5, 7.7, 8.1, 7.3, 3.6
15' Putts-HA -2.1, 2.1, 0, 2.2, -2.2

here's gary's 2nd run with putting correction off. if you account a right bias of 5.6 degrees the numbers actually aren't that awful except for a few outliers.

BS	HA	HA w/Bias
4.3	8.4	2.8
4.2	5.6	0
4.9	8.3	2.7
4.5	5.6	0
4.1	5.7	0.1
5	7.3	1.7
4.4	1.5	-4.1
4.6	5.1	-0.5
5.5	4.3	-1.3
4.3	7.4	1.8
4.9	4.8	-0.8
4.9	4.9	-0.7
4.5	6.9	1.3
4.8	4.9	-0.7
5.1	4.7	-0.9
4.9	7.4	1.8
4.6	5.1	-0.5
5	4.7	-0.9
5.1	4.7	-0.9
4.1	5.8	0.2
4.9	4.8	-0.8
4.8	5	-0.6
4.9	4.9	-0.7
3.7	6.4	0.8

Interesting, just ran my numbers and they are listed below. About 80% are within -1 to +1. So how much of the 20% is the indian vs the arrow.
-3 55
-2 45
-1 53
0 524
1 27
2 26
3 17

Compiled my putt data from yesterday's test using the two alignment rods as a guide. Will do a second test with putting correction off.

[DirtyGarry24]

In reference to the above post and specifically targeting my own putting numbers. I did my testing with my track PARALLEL to the target line with putting correction both ON and OFF. I did this to prove the "right bias" that I've seen with my Skytrak from day one. When I putt for score as in TGC tournaments I aim my cursor within the game to where I think a 0 HA putt would go in. I then roll my putt "some amount" to the left to try and get the ST to give me a 0 HA. Often it works pretty good. Sometimes not so great.

The history of my putting was pulled earlier in the thread before I did any testing and it actually showed that I miss to the left more often than right. I attribute that to my severe aversion to the right miss and over correcting. A good amount of putts being 0 HA.

I'll say it again for those that have a hard time understanding. I can get by as is and perform well most of the time. It's a pain in the ass though and that was the point from the very beginning.

[ProTee United]

Ok, who wants to test the patch?

[BadEddieKit]

I do have it in the forum profile. Also, I completed a round or two in a tournament some time in late Janjuary I think it was, and I showed up on the leaderboard at that time. Nothing has been changed since.

[Sledge0001]

I'd love to test!

[Jtangm04]

I would love the test patch too.

[wbond]

How can you putt a ball straight (it is following a track) and have it read off? .

How can my alignment be off when it reads zero and then up to 3 degrees off?

I have always said that i think it's speed related and i think my limited data shows this to some extent.

There is a problem and this data is showing it.

[awisnia]

Someone once said......"I played both rounds with my new window. I've removed all material from the flash area. The window is still fully protective. Again, looking at HA (direction) on putting is the easiest way to compare. Over the 36 holes, there are no 3 degree misses in either direction. There are many zeroed out putts through the 36 holes. If I recall correctly, there are only 2 or 3 occasions where I missed 2 degrees in either direction. Also, they aren't back to back. That is acceptable. That is the type of human error that we all see when playing golf. That means the new window isn't affecting ST readings."

[DirtyGarry24]

Hahaha!!! Seen it coming a mile a way brother. I guess I'll have to deal with you and your buddy from now on huh? Such an obvious attempt and you do it weekly on these threads.

Pssst, I roll the ball left when I play to try and get decent reads and I do. And you still haven't figured it out. LMAO 😂

Shouldn't you be spending your time attempting to gloat about your case sells on eBay? Do I need to post your emails on the forum for all to see?

Give it a rest friend...

[awisnia]

Wouldn't have been much easier to say,at some point in this lengthy thread, "I have found that 0.0 HA is slightly left of where I visually think it is. Effectively, part of "properly aligning" your SkyTrak is finding that line and setting a putting target".

[FaultyClubs]

I think a lot of people get the alignment wrong because they don't understand the basic concepts.

The very definition of "being in alignment" means that if you roll your putt dead straight down your target line the measuring device reads 0.0 HLA. So in the case of Gary's test, if we assume his desired target line was his test track, then a ball rolled down that track would read 0.0 HLA on the Skytrak if it was properly aligned. But it doesn't. He gets an average reading of 5.6R offline. Therefore his Skytrak is MISALIGNED. It needs to be rotated 5.6 degrees to be in alignment.

Lest Gary thinks he's being picked on, you can see the same thing in my GC2 data published. There I got an average reading of 0.7L offline. Therefore my GC2 was also misaligned by 0.7 degrees. Since it doesn't affect the random error component that we have been talking about the misalignents don't matter. But they definitely matter when using in the Sim, especially if it is on the order of 5-6 degrees.

NOTE: It is irrelevant what the Skytrak's laser dots claim, or how the case looks or whatever. It only matters what the Skytrak thinks is 0.0 HLA (and on the Skytrak I guess it has to be measured for various reasons). On the GC2 it seems to coincide with the case and on a Quad they actually do this optical alignment process for you (very nifty).

Personally I suspect a lot of the Skytrak angst comes from people who don't understand how to align their systems and are operating with misaligned systems. I offer this explanation to help but feel free to ignore...it's your nickel.

NOTE: When testing your alignment you need to hit at least 10 perfectly online putts*** and compute the mean. It is the mean that tells you how misaligned your Skytrak is. Note also the mean is only required due to the random errors the Skytrak (or any measuring device) produces. A perfectly accurate device could do it with only on reading. Note also that you can't be hitting Protee's 3 degree Skytrak "bumper guards" either when doing this because it distorts the mean and therefore the 0.0 HLA point for the Skytrak. EDIT: *** For clarity, the "10 perfectly online putts" mentioned above means in real physical life they have to be perfectly online. It doesn't mean putting and looking at it in TGC.

Final note: Once you have your Skytrak properly aligned, a ball hit perfectly down the target line will conceptually read 0.0 HLA on the Skytrak and this 0.0 HLA value will then be fed into TGC which will in turn hit the putt perfectly straight at the TGC aim point (given a flat green etc). That's how it all works.

[DirtyGarry24]

inorkuo nailed it and that's what I've been saying. Sure you could align the putting, but you're ball flight would then be biased the opposite way. Inorkuo a former ST user vs. some guy who simply knows everything. I know which one I'd choose to listen to.

[FaultyClubs]

inorkuo: If that is the case, then agreed.

Are there any tests (versus anecdotal) showing that the Skytrak optical boresight changes when putting versus the other clubs? It's not an easy test to do the other clubs.

[inorkuo]

no unfortunately i never took the time to figure out exactly how much different the lines were. i just know my skytrak was pointed to the right and when it was time to putt, i'd aim parallel to the skytrak.

[BadEddieKit]

On a quick preliminary test, the patch works as advertised with no noticeable side effects. Didnt have much time to do anything significant however. The real test will be when playing some rounds to see how much a difference it does make. This might even open the door to 3' gimmies, as a possible trade off!

[DirtyGarry24]

Great suggestion bad eddie! Hadn't thought about that. Never really loved the 6 foot gimmes. If you consider slope and speed, the "knee knocker" effect could be implemented. I would love that if possible.

[DirtyGarry24]

I'm glad we cleared up some misunderstandings here. Back on task now. A few ST members have a patch that should give 0 HA when putting. We'll test it out and hopefully it'll be available for anyone that wants to use it.

Then, the real question becomes will it be allowed during tournament play. In my opinion that is what's important. If someone wants to use it outside of tournament play most likely makes no difference to anyone.

[ProTee United]

BadEddieKit Find your TGC USER ID (not your nickname) in the settings file.

[BadEddieKit]

Ahhhhh.. Okay you got me! lol thx

[wbond]

What would I align mine to if you think it's not aligned correctly? Am i supposed to use the results from a 4' putt or a 15' putt to calculate the mean.

All putts were hit straight down a track.
Shot Correction OFF
4' Putts-HA 7.5, 7.7, 8.1, 7.3, 3.6
15' Putts-HA -2.1, 2.1, 0, 2.2, -2.2

I would be willing to guess that if i follow what you're suggesting, when i hit driver, irons etc, they are going to be way wrong.

I think a lot of people get the alignment wrong because they don't understand the basic concepts.

The very definition of "being in alignment" means that if you roll your putt dead straight down your target line the measuring device reads 0.0 HLA. So in the case of Gary's test, if we assume his desired target line was his test track, then a ball rolled down that track would read 0.0 HLA on the Skytrak if it was properly aligned. But it doesn't. He gets an average reading of 5.6R offline. Therefore his Skytrak is MISALIGNED. It needs to be rotated 5.6 degrees to be in alignment.


NOTE: It is irrelevant what the Skytrak's laser dots claim, or how the case looks or whatever. It only matters what the Skytrak thinks is 0.0 HLA (and on the Skytrak I guess it has to be measured for various reasons). On the GC2 it seems to coincide with the case and on a Quad they actually do this optical alignment process for you (very nifty).

Personally I suspect a lot of the Skytrak angst comes from people who don't understand how to align their systems and are operating with misaligned systems. I offer this explanation to help but feel free to ignore...it's your nickel.

NOTE: When testing your alignment you need to hit at least 10 perfectly online putts*** and compute the mean. It is the mean that tells you how misaligned your Skytrak is. Note also the mean is only required due to the random errors the Skytrak (or any measuring device) produces. A perfectly accurate device could do it with only on reading. Note also that you can't be hitting Protee's 3 degree Skytrak "bumper guards" either when doing this because it distorts the mean and therefore the 0.0 HLA point for the Skytrak. EDIT: *** For clarity, the "10 perfectly online putts" mentioned above means in real physical life they have to be perfectly online. It doesn't mean putting and looking at it in TGC.

Final note: Once you have your Skytrak properly aligned, a ball hit perfectly down the target line will conceptually read 0.0 HLA on the Skytrak and this 0.0 HLA value will then be fed into TGC which will in turn hit the putt perfectly straight at the TGC aim point (given a flat green etc). That's how it all works.

[awisnia]

Yeah - that's a point..although not a ton of data points, but you've begun a strong case in support of the putting correction "on" . You have thousands of tour data points - it would be interesting to see what the putting looks like if downloaded and HA plotted.

[Thinman]

Can one of you do the alignment rods test in JNPG and compare the results to your TGC test please.

Good discussion...made nearly unreadable by Gary. Work on that maybe huh

[wbond]

Unfortunately i don't have JNPG or I would. Hopefully someone else does and can do it. Would be interesting to see their results. I wonder if they also incorporate a limit that can be turned off to see the actual ST readings as well. It looks like something for sure is going on with slow vs faster putts.