Next Gen Sim Software

[adstotz]

Anyone know if there's any plans to release the upcoming EA Sports PGA Tour game to the sim community? I currently run TGC 2019, but can't wait to get rid of it for something new since it's basically an abandoned game. I demo'd E6, but wasn't a fan of it's graphics and ball physics.

[Morini]

Funny I just posted, but it says unapproved. Very interesting. Probably because I mentioned the name of another product. Will try with name removed.

[Morini]

We have a very small sample size, but they did skip one between TGC and TGC2019, and it is very unlikely that 2021 will be turned into a sim.

But the future is unknown. Skytrak is probably the main customer for Protee, and who knows the future of Skytrak. It is now 7 years old. In addition, things have gotten more complicated:

• 2K sports bought out HB studios.
• 2K partnered with Tiger.
• Tiger partnered with Full Swing
• Vista bought Foresight and may be getting into virtual golf in a big way
• another independent small competing sim continues to develop, but has been "shunned" by Skytrak and others. Will standard going forward be closed or open? Different LM's seem to be taking a different route with regards to revenue streams.

You also have understand what a niche market golf sims are at this point in time. We are blessed that Rapsodo developed a $2K LM that has accurate ball data, and that Protee has been able to take a polished 7 figure video game and turn it into a golf sim. The downside to that is that it is not possible for Protee to make changes to the code ... but you gain game development that would not be possible otherwise. And then all the incredible user created courses of course. I am perfectly happy with the status quo.

[StalefishFS3]

Here is where I see sim golf going in the next couple years (2022-2024):

1) FSXPlay (successor to FSX2020) will likely be very nice. It would not surprise me that once they give the 10 "free" courses, that they turn into a subscription like Trackman, and charge 1000/year or 2000 for 3 years and you get all the courses Vista/Foresight develops. Other than the premium courses like Pebble, St. Andrews, etc.... The downside is they online sim world for FSXPlay will be very limited, as you will need a Foresight/Bushnell device to compete online against others.

2) Trackman: status quo. Very limited online user base. Great graphics, great courses. Extra for the premium courses. Expensive all the way around, but great customer service.

3) E6 Connect: will continue on, but lose user base because of other competition. They will continue to drop prices in order to try and stop the bleeding.

4) TCG2019: wildcard. Who knows where this is going? I have my opinions on this software and its future, but will keep to myself.

5) Unkeekor software: they will likely continue to develop it, but since I don't have Refine or Ignite, I cannot comment on online user base or the gameplay of Uneekor's courses.

6) Other: most everyone knows what I am talking about. The other will be "the" software to have in the next 24 months. Has all the graphics of TM, great courses with no premium "tax", price is right and has a growing and passionate user base.

[Morini]

4) TCG2019: wildcard. Who knows where this is going? I have my opinions on this software and its future, but will keep to myself.

This is just a guess, but I believe more rounds of sim golf are enjoyed on TGC2019 than any other sim ... by a long shot. It just makes so much sense to combine the HUGE video game budget (7 or 8 figure) with the small but growing sim market. Just a wild guess, TGC 2019 sold maybe 2 million copies. Average price? So hard to tell with steam sales common, but maybe $30. Revenue $60 million+. Numbers are probably better for 2k21. No idea what TGC2019 sim revenue is, but maybe 10K units sold? With current pricing, not negligible share of total revenue. The financial arrangement is not known, I get that. But the growing sim revenues ought to count for something, however they trickle back to HB/2K.

Just maybe sim considerations will be included in development from the start in the next version. People like to play against others and I believe organized sim play will continue to grow tremendously. In the all important graphics department, I am quite confident that TGC will ALWAYS win graphically versus all other sims. The optimization and quality of game assets made possible by the huge budget will ensure that. In addition, the huge number of high quality existing user dveloped courses is an enormous incumbent advantage. If HB develop the next version it to be more customizable by sim partner, it will check all the boxes.

As such I am not ready to count out the TGC franchise. I do think some market segmentation will happen in the future, where lesser LM's (ie. R10) users will pay significantly less for TGC. Maybe removal of the one time purchase option, which would be disappointing.

[Morini]

A counter argument:

Game engines are easier than ever to work with, and game development tools are getting smarter and smarter. There are plug-ins that can use lidar and GIS data to create natural landscapes quite easily. Game physics is getting better and better. The resources required to develop a golf sim will shrink over time.

During the first covid lockdown, I bought my son a Udemy course, and following that he made a pretty fun pinball game in Unreal engine in about 30 hours. There is another tutorial for building a mini golf game. From mini-golf to a rudimentary golf sim is not a huge stretch. It would be fun to make a single golf hole just as a proof of concept. The built in physics would be laughable, but the ball would fly, bounce and roll out. A university physics student could probably develop a reasonable ball flight model using public information. One can only hope that there will be more competition in the golf sims in the future.

[Gresh12]

My 2 cents.

Like everything these days launch monitor companies look for recurring revenue. SkyTrak went there out of the gate albeit with pretty low annual fees.

Trackman has been there for awhile. I think Foresight/Bushnell is following this now but on a clunky model (for the already $800 a year subscription model do they end up paying $1800 a year if FSX goes subscription because I’d be pissed if I paid $4k more up front to own outdated software and only 10 courses if they let anyone pay $1k but $1800 a year feels steep even if you paid less up front).

I think 3rd party software has a market if the launch monitors don’t get more restrictive and lock people out more and more. I play with a few friends online and we don’t have the same launch monitors so it definitely starts to suck as a consumer if you lose ability to play with friends as hardware companies lock down software options.

The 3rd party options that I’ve tried all have pros and cons. The big con of TGC 2019 to me is lack of updates. I’ve owned it since day one and the handful of things that annoyed me then still exist. Compared to other options it feels TGC ends up as “build a great product today but then it ages until it’s replaced”. I personally do feel the user created courses in TGC are a blessing and a curse. With no mandatory quality control there is a very good chance a version of the course you pick is terrible or impossible for a sim. The course quality is solved here by some of the lists available but I only get so many sim rounds in so I end up playing courses I know are good on TGC as opposed to trying new ones whereas on E6 I know anything I pick will be good.