Unofficial opinion on 5% alteration

[Wizard of Coz]

Please vote yes or no on should we be allowed 5% alteration to ball carry/ spin etc.....in tournaments.
this is unofficial and wizard is just curious what people think. Just your opinion and i'm totally cool with voting either way. No hate here. Wiz loves almost everybody. 99.9% love he is far from perfect 0.1% anyway. Lol

Wiz vote
No

#1 reason he uses it is cause he competes against it

[mthunt]

Wizard of Coz has decided that the boost will remain in his society because his ceiling is 93 inches.

[Wizard of Coz]

Wizard has decided to retire but Noonan follows protee rules so you can use 0% to 5% up to you. Please don't bring gimmie gators larger than 6ft. My ceiling height is 7ft 9in and requires a special skill set to play under.

Noonan Temporary ban for large gators
Alderson
Davis

if you want to play in Noonan contact me and I will lift ban. You just need to follow the 6ft or less gimmie rule.

thanks,

Wiz

[Jwheels9876]

is that 93 inches? First I have heard of this

[mthunt]

93 inches have worked thus far. Not sure why it’s a concern now. Maybe you need a shovel

[Shipwreck34]

Please for the love of god understand that 5% boost actually makes yardage gaps bigger

it doesn't allow people to compete

5% of 100 is less than 5% of 150 is less than 5% of 180

boost is even more of an advantage for the already longer guys

I was about to agree with you seeing as your argument was the only one that made mathematical sense to me... until I did the math.

+5% on all of your examples =
105 / 158 / 189

Equaling +5 yds, +7.5 yds, + 9 yds respectively

Sum of +4 yds difference bottom to top

However, your argument starts from the wrong place. The yardages you're referencing are Iron distances (for what I would suspect is the majority of the community), therefore not applicable to boost. The question in play here is for the Driver only, yes?

Let's play the math out a little more, in the realm it will live in.

200
225
250

+5% on that is +10 yds (210) / +11.25 yds (236) / 12.5 yds (263)

Sum of +2.5 yds difference bottom to top

I think perhaps if you can't make up 2.5 whole yards on the second shot, you've got bigger problems than a 5% boost. Now if we're supposing worst case scenario here with guy hitting 200 & no boost VS guy hitting 250 with boost, you're still only talking a 12.5 yard difference because of the boost. Dare I say my statement still stands. If you can't make up 12.5 yards on the second shot by choosing the correct club (in all but a handful of situations) then the problem is YOU, not BOOST.

Just my casual observation. Not trying to ruffle your feathers.

[Shipwreck34]

I keep bringing it up because as others have already stated (I thought you among them), or at least alluded to, the fact that Straight Putt is next on the chopping block.

And no... +5% still doesn't bring me up in game to my IRL numbers, and I doubt it does for many others, but it does get me closer. You've obviously been around long enough to know that. I don't know why you'd make such a suggestive and purposely inflammatory insinuation other than for flame bait and to be insulting.

And finally... I know you've created your own society. Which confounds me then as to why you'd still be in here, pushing the issue?! TBTH I hope your society does very well. I very much WANT to see the people who want to play at that level be playing with other people who want to play at that level instead of ruining everyone else's good time because they somehow feel slighted by a grand total of approximately 12.5 yards worst-case-scenario!!! Which isn't gonna be the case anyway to anyone except those not on this forum and completely unaware. They could be using 20%!!! Oh no! The horror!! Coz has said it multiple times, "I use +5% because the competition does", which to me seems reasonable. Perhaps I still truly don't understand the difference?

I would hate to play with that class of person IRL. Don't worry, I'm not looking or waiting for an invite. You can save the insult for someone who cares.

[EskimoQuinn]

Shipwreck? What are your real life numbers? Are you hitting on a LM outside?

[Shipwreck34]

IRL I'm only a 240 - 280 yard hitter @ 9.5° loft. On occasion I'll hit flush and strong and get ~290. I average between 98-112 CHS, once again with a Driver.

IMO the numbers I've laid out here are in the ballpark. My ST fairly consistently reads 10-15 yds below that in TGC2019. The +5% boost gets it close. I don't use it for anything else.

Also, my numbers in the ST Range are much more accurate. And yes, that is tested outside. Don't take that as being dead accurate though. But it allowed me to see how the ST reacts. i.e. Anything fat even a little off the mat and it is much harder on you than the actual shot. Serious distance killer. Even hit perfectly fine I found something like 1-in-8 shots were either + or - 10 to 20 yards. No good reason I could see other than maybe it decided there was more or less spin than the ball actually had, therefore changing the distance in the ST? IDK. I even found a long ball hitter adjacent to me at the range and asked him if he wanted to give it a go. His longest was 310, so that distance is possible, just not for me. I knew that, I just wanted to see it on my unit. (he was really pushing though)

My next test is going to be running my ST up against a Full Swing Sim I have access to and compare. I know those numbers have already been done by someone somewhere, I just want to see how my unit compares. Well see.

[Celeras]

You've said absolutely nothing wrong Shipwreck34 .. of course you can make up 12.5 yards with the next club. But you're missing the point! Pick any metric you'd like to quantify, they'll all say the same thing. Lets start simple with "Greens Hit Percentage". On the PGA tour, the percent chance to hit the green from 174 yards out is 66%. The percent chance to hit from 202 yards out? 50%. Now that is double the 12.5 yards you quoted, but they published those figures because the percentages are smooth even numbers. You're looking at what, an 8-10% increased chance to hit the green by your yardage figure? See how the 5% boost starts to snowball? And that's a professional.. it will obviously be exacerbated for us.

That's just the beginning, now lets go deeper. From 125 yards out the average PGA approach shot is 20 feet from the pin. From 150 yards, the average approach shot is 27.6 feet from the pin. A difference of, big math here, 7.6 feet at the absolute highest level of the game. Now let's look at putting percentages and say you hit a good one. Average chance to make a 7 footer (just outside gimme range!)? 56%. Average chance to make a 15 footer after adding that 7.6 feet? 23%!

That extra 8-10% chance to hit the green, just became a 33% chance to pick up an entire stroke because of a "measly" 5% distance boost. Imagine that advantage ON EVERY SINGLE HOLE.. and with non-professionals. And keep in mind that is ONLY calculating driver boost. There is a whole different layer on top of that if my 150 shot is a 9 iron and yours is a PW. The average proximity to the hole will not be the same, and the numbers will scale exponentially.

[Jwheels9876]

lol
great post
i think you just shut this whole topic down
but I'm sure people will find a way to argue your facts

[Shipwreck34]

You've said absolutely nothing wrong Shipwreck34 .. of course you can make up 12.5 yards with the next club. But you're missing the point! Pick any metric you'd like to quantify, they'll all say the same thing. Lets start simple with "Greens Hit Percentage". On the PGA tour, the percent chance to hit the green from 174 yards out is 66%. The percent chance to hit from 202 yards out? 50%. Now that is double the 12.5 yards you quoted, but they published those figures because the percentages are smooth even numbers. You're looking at what, an 8-10% increased chance to hit the green by your yardage figure? See how the 5% boost starts to snowball? And that's a professional.. it will obviously be exacerbated for us...

I can appreciate what you're saying, but your assumptions are a little off. In yardage (2.5y between 200y and 250y, not 12.5 & 183y and 212y respectively for your example not withstanding club choice and personal distances effecting this the most) and in assumption of baseline. Point being, the other LM's don't need boost to pretty much match IRL numbers like the ST does at the top end.

Plus, it assumes all shots are straight and distance is the only factor for hit percentage. I'm grasping what you're getting at but the point to the boost isn't making all of our shots the same, it's about trying to get as close to IRL numbers without also being an unfair advantage.

If the point was to give us all boost to appropriate levels so that we ALL hit 250 yds, then we should just be playing Best Ball and call it a day! LOL

[Celeras]

There is no assumption of accuracy in the PGA baseline for strokes gained (which is the numbers I was quoting.. 33% chance to gain 1 stroke is 0.33 strokes gained). That is what I meant when I emphasized that these are professional numbers. They are more accurate than us, for sure... that's the point. We gain a whole lot more by being closer than they do because we likely get exponentially worse the farther we have to go. Using them is conservative.

The numbers aren't intended to state emphatically "boosting gives you X percent chance to gain a stroke". They're intended to show the snowball that exists at every level.

[edit] Also, dont quote that gif or the entire page will be scrolling through it hahah

[Will]

...deleted essay

[Shipwreck34]

GIF deleted...

Whatever the case may be, the snowball I'm most worried about is the "Once we get rid of Boost, Straight Putt is next". I've made this statement before, and that I really don't even care about Boost. I also really don't care about these ultra competitive guys who think it's unfair. I care that the most people possible can have fun in one group. You are never going to make everyone happy, so focus on what's best for everyone. Unfortunately, that opinion differs... wildly, and the vocal minority usually runs the show.

So, as I've advocated before, lets go for Hardware Specific Tournaments until either:

1.) Everyone upset about something so minor can get over it, or
2.) They do just fine blazing their own NO BOOST NO STRAIGHT PUTT trail.

Let the chips fall where they may. I believe that those who are against it the most know where those chips are gonna fall. Which is why instead of doing their own thing, which would be the most simple solution for everyone, they're trying to drag everyone with them.

[mthunt]

I’m not reading these essays. I just wanted to throw shade at Jeff. LOL. Dig it out.

[Wizard of Coz]

I should dig it out. I have a pretty easy set up for that project.

[mthunt]

You won't regret it.

[dg_1983]

A lot going on here.

Shipwreck34 I'm not sure if you agreed or disagreed with my suggestion that it makes the yardage gaps bigger if EVERYONE did it - you did seem to prove that point, then for some reason try to say 10 yards can be made up else where which is true but just silly and not the point.

Straight putt wont go anywhere - it is needed for most if not everyone to enjoy themselves. this keeps being proven and proven over and ober

ST "needing" boost on driver - it is interesting that there has been a fix put in with no one noticing any difference?

Having played ST for 3 years and moving to GC2 I'd actually be happy to allow ST Driver boost in society...................

I'll say that again...............ST DRIVER BOOST (or other agreed LMs). NOT IRON BOOST, NOT SELECTIVE IRON BOOST, NOT GC2 USERS BOOSTING ASWELL "because it is in the society rules" that nullifies the leveling of the ST field.

These rules would make it "fair" for everyone to play and compete at their respective levels. IF folks just wanna have fun and boost 20% or whatever boost setup - cool - nothing stopping them - just wont count for the tournaments/leagues/season standings that so many of us have FUN playing for.

[Wizard of Coz]

Yeah I think the original rule was made for people that can't swing driver correctly. 7ft 11inch ceiling height and less. The ole 95! Lol

[Jwheels9876]

95 if you survive the big dig

[Wizard of Coz]

I fixed previous statement

[SkeetShooter]

I don't use boost but then again i'm new to TGC2019. Would I use it? No... What would I use??? Some sort of spin correction/ alteration to straighten out my drives Other than that. I'm good playing it the way I hit it.

[Shipwreck34]

dg_1983 I was going to reiterate my points due to your confessed lack of understanding, but I realized I should just suggest that you read my comments again and see if it sticks this time.

Wouldn't want to be boring anyone with any more "essays". Especially ones that don't support their opinions, or fall in line with preconceived notions.

[dg_1983]

Shipwreck34 To clear up - my numbers referenced wasn't iron carry it was more ball speeds, I'm not even sure anyone knows if the boost is carry or BS.

My point is accurate, the yardage gaps between players is wider if everyone uses boost.

The real problem here isn't players using boost to work around a LM deficiency. The problem is other users, without a LM deficiency boosting "because it is in the rules".

GC2 User 1 carries 265 and uses the rules as they are intended
GC2 User 2 carries 275 and takes advantage of the rules

User 1 Carries 265
User 2 Carries 289

24 yards difference

That opens up course management options for user 2 that otherwise are not an option based on 275 carry (Think carry water with driver rather than lay up with hybrid, its a huge difference)
The means they are hitting at least 1 club less for 2nd shots - sometimes more if the topology of the course means they get extra roll out on slopes that they wouldn't otherwise get to
Hitting greens and 2 putting with 6 foot gimmes rather than having to pitch

This isn't really about alienating any users - its about stopping the abusers of the rules.

I don't think boost should be taken away, only the rule tightened to allow it under agreed circumstances - not willy nilly

[Shipwreck34]

If things can move, things move. If people can cheat, people cheat. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant "use every opportunity presented to better themselves".

I know better than to think that policing cheating will work 100%. Probably more like 60%? That is without concerted, dedicated effort to bring it up to say, 95%. That is a full time job for someone. Ask mthunt , he's alluded to that enough. That doesn't sound like fun to anyone, or at least not me. I want to play the game, not police pricks. To that end, I'd support 5% just to get my numbers on ST closer to IRL. That's all. For me. Just for me. I can't stop the other people from cheating.

Hell, maybe once we get the new ST Update integrated with TGC2019 it will become a moot point. Not that I felt I needed any boost to get my numbers when in the ST Range, but the improvement to high end ball speed appears good. Not that I need the boost in TGC2019. I've clearly said that too. The points you make both agree and disagree, which is confusing.

for some reason try to say 10 yards can be made up else where which is true but just silly and not the point.

Advocating for Boost

The real problem here isn't players using boost to work around a LM deficiency. The problem is other users, without a LM deficiency boosting "because it is in the rules".

Advocating against Boost


So which is it? I've said this repeatedly... I don't really care which way it goes with Driver Boost (as you mentioned). I don't need it anyway, I'll make up the yards another way. (why that is a foreign concept I don't understand). But, if people are going to use it, then I'll use it too. (Paraphrased quote from Wiz).

As long as I can keep Straight Putt to keep myself from putting my head through the wall, and no one is using 20% Boost, (as Mthunt has said in other threads is pretty easy to sniff out) then why are we still on about this?

Don't like the way it's done? Do your own thing and create your own Society like JWheels did, or segregate by Hardware. To which I've seen a couple of those posts recently. GC2 conspicuously still absent.

TL;DR: If reading isn't for you, I don't care to summarize.

[dg_1983]

I've actually lost the thread of this. For someone that doesn't care either way you sure do have a long and complicated opinion on the matter!

I don't think one of my statements is for boost and the other against, I think both are clearly against boost.

I have no time for your attitude of "go your own way". That's never the solution. Time will tell but i'm confident things will land the correct way up!

[Roof954]

Another vote for no