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GSA vs. Protee Simulator research

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  • GSA vs. Protee Simulator research

    In one of my earlier postings I was talking about labeling and putting together a list of sims from top to bottom I am now doing some research on this and starting the process I will take that data, options for the sim and price points with ratings and where they are on a top to bottom list and send it to Bubba I hope and have him pick it apart. So my question is this I was looking into the GSA system that Keither owns and its very close to a Protee. But I see that GSA are advancing there system on cameras and new mats trying to always improve on and grow, what is the thought or expectations for Protee owners, is anything in Research and development to improve this system. I know there is a point that how much is to much but I do not think we are there for a Protee yet, I think that if this is it for protee on the system what is going to happen a couple years from now as everyone is moving forward, ES16, the GC2 with HMT and more is on the way.
    Last edited by aeroburner; 11-17-2016, 02:48 PM.

  • #2
    Great question and I look forward to the responses. But, when I think about where I am now with my ProTee, I have to ask "What do I want out of the system?

    To start, let me say that for me, the system is really, really accurate. I am able to fade or draw the ball as I do in real golf. I think perhaps my ball flight in the sim is a little higher than in real life, but I think the distances are dead on. Now, I have tweaked my cameras, the ball drag, my swing path, and club face correction to where I think they mimic real life and like I said, I can manipulate my ball flight as I can in my real swing.

    So, what more do I want? I am a tinkerer by nature, but the truth is, I can flip on the lights and hit balls night after night with consistent results. In fact, one of my purposes of logging in today was to research gear effect settings, and some of the other more obtuse settings to see if I can find something to play around with, but the truth is that I really don't need to, I just LIKE tinkering.

    As far as the physical system, I like the mat. Now, I don't actually place the ball on the white tee spot, I always play the ball about 1 inch ahead because I don't like hitting that close to the sensors and despite what ProTee says, I don't think it effects my results or perhaps I have adjusted my settings to compensate for that fact.....but my point is that I like the mat as a hitting mat.

    So, what more do I want from my system? I don't need or want something that I can take outside. I want/have a permanent system. So, for me, I am always interested in advancement and hope that ProTee continues to tweak the hardware, etc....but, it's pretty dang good now.

    For me, I am more concerned about the development of TGC. I applaud how ProTee has developed TGC for the simulators and I would love to see more advancement in the software as a training aid. I think a more advanced driving range could be developed where more data is made available and you could have a more robust training session. Maybe the ability to place the ball anywhere on a course and hit shot after shot for practice purposes.

    Finally, I think ProTee is starting to develop a more robust data capturing and reporting system. They have a long way to go especially when compared to skytrak's internal data system....but, I am confident the ProTee will get us there. I know his desire and ambition is to make TGC the industry standard and I believe he will.

    Anyway, look forward to any thoughts on future development.

    Gene

    Comment


    • #3
      I've been using my protee system for going on 3 years now and I would agree with Gene that it is VERY accurate when set up properly. Setting up the system and getting it working just the way you want is difficult though and does take quite a bit of patience. There are two phases to the setup as far a I can see, Phase One - Cameras, and Phase two - ball and club data. (edit - Phase One would actually be setting up mats, sensors, wiring lights etc, definitely not an out to the box type situation)

      The cameras can be frustrating to set up and get working properly, the vertical camera in particular, and I'm surprised after all this time Protee hasn't come out with some sort of "Camera Optimizer program" that would look at your particulars, lighting etc and simply optimize/set the cameras for you, this would make the system infinitely more user friendly.

      With regards to ball and club data, I've had to adjust the following to get the system to where it needs to be, ball speed and drag in the settings, and sweet spot, face and path in the interface itself. In this area I'm a bit surprised that they haven't gone to sliders in the setting for SS, path and face as they have for ball speed and drag, this change once again would make the system more user friendly.

      Now the good, when set up properly the system gives you accurate ball speed, carry distances, path and face, and center of contact. For me ball speed and center of contact are huge. Putting is also very good, although based on the panel you wouldn't get as much accuracy as you would on others systems. i.e for instance maybe the system only read to 1 degree, whereas .1 degree might be measured in other systems, and 1 degree can be a lot when it comes to a putt. Another advantage is that the system does easily allow for lefty righty play.

      The system obviously doesn't give you actual spin numbers, but their calculations seem pretty good. The system also struggles a bit with high soft launch angle shots, and about 1 in 25 full shots the system does give excessive ball speed readings.

      For me personally ball speed, path, face and center of contact are very important, so at the present time the only other system I would consider would be the GC2 with HMT, albeit at 3 times the price, and even their club data is not displayed in TGC. ES16 has some promise but seems to have some issues to work out, so maybe ES18 will be the ultimate affordable answer.

      Also, one other huge advance for Protee would be if you could also intergrate an affordabe launch monitor, such as a skytrak into the sytems, using the skytrak for ball date and the protee for club data.
      Last edited by Cklguy2013; 11-18-2016, 12:39 AM.

      Comment


      • gene438
        gene438 commented
        Editing a comment
        I noticed you said you adjusted the sweet spot settings in your setup. Can you talk about that, what does it actually do, does it effect smash factor or anything like that? Exactly what did you change and what effects did it have?

        thanks,
        Gene

      • Cklguy2013
        Cklguy2013 commented
        Editing a comment
        No it doesn't impact smash or ball performance, maybe gear effect on woods, if you have that turned on but otherwise it doesn't impact performance. In the TGC shot display there is a box call "deviation" which shows where you've hit the ball on the face of the club, and in the interface you can move this either right or left. What I did was use foot spray on my club to indicate where I was hitting the ball on the face and then adjust the interface setting slightly to match. So now if it says in the deviation box that I hit it in the center of the club then I did, as this now matches up with the foot spray impact mark left on my club. To me this is one very underrated aspect of Protee, in that it lets you know where you're hitting the ball on the face of the club, and work on it accordingly. Btw you can adjust separately for driver, woods, irons and wedges.
        Last edited by Cklguy2013; 11-18-2016, 12:09 AM.

      • gene438
        gene438 commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks for the info....this is my next project

    • #4
      According to most people, protee has to have a lot of settings adjusted to mimic your game IRL. What happens when someone else uses the system, would they not get results similar to their IRL shots? Or is just getting it adjusted to your individual setup and then it should be representative of anyone's game regardless who uses it. Would be awesome if they could partner up the skytrak and protee data. You could then get both ball and club data and TGC for about 5k i think. That would be one heck of a deal.
      Last edited by wbond; 11-17-2016, 05:57 PM.

      Comment


      • keither5150
        keither5150 commented
        Editing a comment
        If the ProTee system has the sensor mat and 2 cameras, everyone will get results similar to their real life game. I think that you may be thinking of a 2 camera system like my GSA CX2. With such a short measurement of ball path, the system can't determine whether the ball is a pull or push, fade or draw. You basically have to tell the system .....generally if I hit it right, it will go straight or it will fade. There is a slider for that with almost infinite adjustment between the two. Once you add the sensor mat to my CX2 system.... all club data is measured. So the sim can tell the difference between a pull and a fade. And, it looks like my sensor mat will be here tomorrow. I will have it up and running for Saturday...... Unless the wife hijacks me. The mat takes my system to a PX5 system which sells at GSA for 3K right now.

    • #5
      This dialogue is exactly what I am taliking about and I appreciate all the buy in from forum members but the protee advancement has never been discussed as I see with the other units out there, I have a skytrak and looking at a GC2 and also es16 to buy for portability to take to my other house out of state. but only looking. But one thing I do know so far as I work through the protee and fine tune it I love it more and more it does have a few issues but they are fixed now or in process and what ever else comes up it's identified and addressed but in the 3 months I have had this going the set up has made leaps and bounds. I am a bells and whistles kind of guy and if an upgrade comes up I want it especially if it improves performance of the system just like the h cam that I added or the putting sensor. The research I am doing on this is trying to see what is available now and what is on the horizon with each system. As soon as I have enough data based off this forum and website I will reach out to each manufacturer and discuss the future and apply this to the list that will take me some time to produce but am Hoping to reach out to owners of certain sims get information, bubba has tested a lot of units out there and has a lot of knowledge and would like to send the rough draft to him to get his buy in. After that put to a final draft and publish to all.

      Comment


      • #6
        Agree with just about everything said above. to answer wbond's question, I believe the settings that we had to tweet were probably unique to our system, the mat, the position of the mat to our hitting mat, and specifically the way our sensors are mounted to each and every board. Every unit is in fact different to a degree. I think once a unit is dialed in to it's specific installation, the unit is good for all golfers. So, I don't believe we are dialing it into our swings but actually dialing in our particular unit to our paritcular installation. A whole lot of variables to take into account....thus the need for the settings.

        All that said, which brings me to my main point. I believe what you buy should also reflect the kind of person you are. I like to tinker, I want a thousand settings so that I can customize. I want to know how the thing works, what it is actually doing, etc. Some guys don't. They want plug n play and if it is not accurate they want to send it back or just live with it. They are not interested in how it works.

        As your self a simple question. The ProTee has hundreds of settings that you can adjust.....do you like that or do you think that is a lot of hard work? How you answer the question will tell you what kind of system you probably should buy. (GC2 or Protee)

        Comment


        • Cklguy2013
          Cklguy2013 commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes the tweaking it is to get the system to read and reflect what is really happening.

      • #7
        Originally posted by wbond View Post
        According to most people, protee has to have a lot of settings adjusted to mimic your game IRL. What happens when someone else uses the system, would they not get results similar to their IRL shots? Or is just getting it adjusted to your individual setup and then it should be representative of anyone's game regardless who uses it. Would be awesome if they could partner up the skytrak and protee data. You could then get both ball and club data and TGC for about 5k i think. That would be one heck of a deal.
        Keither and wbond i will definetly be picking your brains on your units as well as Hunt as he is running the GC2 as well as CK and Gene and any one else whom might have time to help on this as i do not think to much data will be wasted on this.

        Comment


        • #8
          I like that the protee system can be tweaked but if you're not an experienced golfer that knows what a particular shot should do then getting it set up correctly is difficult. I bought a used skytrak and have spent hours hitting on both simultaneously to tweak protee but without something to compare it to, I was just guessing.

          Comment


          • Cklguy2013
            Cklguy2013 commented
            Editing a comment
            I would agree with this comment, not bragging but I'm a very good and consistent ball striker, so that definitely helps when it comes to tweaking the system, in that I can hit multiple solid shots in a row, and know/feel what should have happened.

          • gene438
            gene438 commented
            Editing a comment
            Very true...and good point. I think the more confident and experience a player is with his swing the easier it is to work with the ProTee

        • #9
          Originally posted by Cklguy2013 View Post
          I've been using my protee system for going on 3 years now and I would agree with Gene that it is VERY accurate when set up properly. Setting up the system and getting it working just the way you want is difficult though and does take quite a bit of patience. There are two phases to the setup as far a I can see, Phase One - Cameras, and Phase two - ball and club data. (edit - Phase One would actually be setting up mats, sensors, wiring lights etc, definitely not an out to the box type situation)

          The cameras can be frustrating to set up and get working properly, the vertical camera in particular, and I'm surprised after all this time Protee hasn't come out with some sort of "Camera Optimizer program" that would look at your particulars, lighting etc and simply optimize/set the cameras for you, this would make the system infinitely more user friendly.

          With regards to ball and club data, I've had to adjust the following to get the system to where it needs to be, ball speed and drag in the settings, and sweet spot, face and path in the interface itself. In this area I'm a bit surprised that they haven't gone to sliders in the setting for SS, path and face as they have for ball speed and drag, this change once again would make the system more user friendly.

          Now the good, when set up properly the system gives you accurate ball speed, carry distances, path and face, and center of contact. For me ball speed and center of contact are huge. Putting is also very good, although based on the panel you wouldn't get as much accuracy as you would on others systems. i.e for instance maybe the system only read to 1 degree, whereas .1 degree might be measured in other systems, and 1 degree can be a lot when it comes to a putt. Another advantage is that the system does easily allow for lefty righty play.

          The system obviously doesn't give you actual spin numbers, but their calculations seem pretty good. The system also struggles a bit with high soft launch angle shots, and about 1 in 25 full shots the system does give excessive ball speed readings.

          For me personally ball speed, path, face and center of contact are very important, so at the present time the only other system I would consider would be the GC2 with HMT, albeit at 3 times the price, and even there club data is not displayed in TGC. ES16 has some promise but seems to have some issues to work out, so maybe ES18 will be the ultimate affordable answer.

          Also, on other huge advance for Protee would be if you could also intergrate an affordabe launch monitor, such as a skytrak into the sytems, using the skytrak for ball date and the protee for club data.
          i will tinker with this tonight thanks for the advice.

          Comment


          • #10
            Originally posted by Cklguy2013 View Post
            Also, one other huge advance for Protee would be if you could also intergrate an affordabe launch monitor, such as a skytrak into the sytems, using the skytrak for ball date and the protee for club data.
            This! If I could have the option to buy a Protee sensor pad only to pair with my Skytrak, I'd be begging ProTee United to take my money.
            Last edited by Vincent_Vega; 11-18-2016, 02:14 AM. Reason: tagged Protee so they can get to work making this happen.

            Comment


            • awisnia
              awisnia commented
              Editing a comment
              Vincent_Vega Exactly! AND/OR integrate the putting sensors into the TGC for SkyTrak.

          • #11
            Originally posted by aeroburner View Post
            ... So my question is this I was looking into the GSA system that Keither owns and its very close to a Protee. But I see that GSA are advancing there system on cameras and new mats trying to always improve on and grow, what is the thought or expectations for Protee owners, is anything in Research and development to improve this system. I know there is a point that how much is to much but I do not think we are there for a Protee yet, I think that if this is it for protee...
            Let me say that I owned Martin's GSA system for over 6 years and it NEVER worked as it was supposed to. As I'm sure Keither will attest, the cx2 portion of the system works just fine. But if you are a player, it is very unsatisfying not having club data and/or spin to let you shape shots. In other words, you predetermine your ball flight. If you hit it left of center it draws, right of center and it fades.

            I actually had the club cam in addition to the cx2...first with metallic sticker dots and then like a dummy, I upgraded to the color club cam that required no club taping. Martin promised that if it didn't work, that he would refund my money...I spent over 7k with him and was able to recoup only a small portion of that. I had to sell it with a bunch of disclosurs on eBay (because I didn't want to trick anyone) as he wouldn't honor his promise.

            It looks as though he is cutting edge and coming up with new and fantastic products...but what good are they if they don't work?

            It looks like he is going back to the basics and bringing back the px mat to pick up the club data. I've always said that if he could get the club and ball spin cams working as advertised, he'd have the best sim on the market regardless of price.

            He is a hobbiest at best that doesn't have the expertise to execute his plan... unfortunate.

            To top it off, he doesn't give refunds. How do you sell a $7000 piece of machine that won't and never will work and not give refunds?

            Protee is a better version of Martin's px5, if for nothing more than the support that they give and how they stand behind their product.

            I've switched to a gc2 and after 6 years of madness, I'm still amazed that I can now go in my sim room and put work in, or just have fun with friends.
            Last edited by Wigalo; 11-19-2016, 12:30 AM.

            Comment


            • #12
              Originally posted by Wigalo View Post

              Let me say that I owned Martin's GSA system for over 6 years and it NEVER worked as it was supposed to. As I'm sure Keither will attest, the cx2 portion of the system works just fine. But if you are a player, it is very unsatisfying not having club data and/or spin to let you shape shots. In other words, you predetermine your ball flight. If you hit it left of center it draws, right of center and it fades.

              I actually had the club cam in addition to the cx2...first with metallic sticker dots and then like a dummy, I upgraded to the color club cam that required no club taping. Martin promised that if it didn't work, that he would refund my money...I spent over 7k with him and was able to recoup only a small portion of that. I had to sell it with a bunch of disclosurs on eBay (because I didn't want to trick anyone) as he wouldn't honor his promise.

              It looks as though he is cutting edge and coming up with new and fantastic products...but what good are they if they don't work?

              It looks like he is going back to the basics and bringing back the px mat to pick up the club data. I've always said that if he could get the club and ball spin cams working as advertised, he'd have the best sim on the market regardless of price.

              He is a hobbiest at best that doesn't have the expertise to execute his plan... unfortunate.

              To top it off, he doesn't give refunds. How do you sell a $7000 piece if machine that won't and never will work and not give refunds?

              Protee is a better version of Martin's px5, if for nothing more than the support that they give and how they stand behind their product.

              I've switched to a gc2 and after 6 years of madness, I'm still amazed that I can now go in my sim room and put work in, or just have fun with friends.
              Thank you for the information, I think upon rating these sim systems Customer service has to be a part of it.

              Comment


              • keither5150
                keither5150 commented
                Editing a comment
                I seem to hit mine pretty far right sometimes. You can adjust the amount of fade that a off center shot will have. The downside to no club data is that a person like me who hits fairly straight playing with a player who has a lot of draw..... you can't make both players happy..... this is why I am spending another $900 to add the sensor mat. I am at a point where I can shape my shots to a certain extent. That's one of my big goals this winter.... Last winter it was trying to hit straight.

            • #13
              I would appreciate all who want to post on this from optishot to skytrak to gc2 to trackman users on where there at on there build pros cons and options that they are using and what they are looking to do to improve there system, all this info is great and will do my best to absorb it all and use it in putting this to a format. thank you all for participating and looking forward to all who want to put there two cents in on this.

              Comment


              • #14
                I wanted to follow up with a video demonstrating how well the ProTee performs after being properly setup. To recap, I have not had any online sessions with ProTee, but between emails and reading this forum, I have spent probably 10-20 hours tweaking, playing, testing, etc. my system. My goal has always been to strive for accuracy in duplicating my shot in real golf.

                Bottom line, I think the system is performing almost flawlessly. Yeah it took awhile and was frustrating at times but, now that it is locked in, I just flip the lights on and start hitting. I'm a decent enough golfer to know when I am fading, drawing, pulling or pushing, etc. and the ProTee picks it up perfectly.

                Below is a small video showing how the system can pick up my swing changes when I choose to fade or draw the ball.

                If you have a permanent setup, you can't go wrong with the ProTee.

                Comment


                • gene438
                  gene438 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If you look carefully at the video, you can see how the ProTee even shows you why or how you are manipulating the swing. In the case above, you can see that when I fade the ball, my swing plane is slightly outside/in and then when I draw the ball, I swing more on plane. This is exactly "the feel" I try to emulate when swinging the club.

              • #15
                Gene great video congrats on the final tuning of the system you nailed it well done I have mine reacting the same way and love shaping my shot with my woods fun as hell turning it around a tree instead of using the 7 and laying up short to make the corner.

                Comment

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