Skytrak Bugs and TGC

[jrz]

I have played two rounds, on two different courses (both labeled as ProTee which I believe means they are good for sim play) on TGC with my Skytrak and have encountered the following two consistent errors. FYI - I posted something similar on another thread but thought this topic was deserving of its own conversation. If you are experiencing the same thing please chime in.

1) Distances are very off. It seems that this affects higher lofted clubs more than lower lofted clubs and drivers. For example, my 9 iron IRL carries about 140 yards. In TGC with the skytrak it was carrying about 170 yards. While I would love to be able to hit it that far I know that this is well beyond what can be accomplished by the pros.

My guess is that TGC is not calculating backspin and sidespin into their ball flight algorithms correctly. Clubs that produce more backspin are carrying way too far and are rolling on the green without any checking.

I believe that sidespin is not being calculated correctly simply because I have never hit so many drives and long irons so straight in my life. I fight a strong draw and every long club I hit went very straight in TGC with Skytrak. When I pushed or pulled a ball it seemed that the HLA was accurate (i.e. if I pushed it right the ball went right) but each pull or push was straight without a draw or fade.

Just to make myself feel more sane I played a few holes at Wade Hampton on E6 after my last round on TGC and the ball flight was what I expected. Distances were as normal and balls were showing backspin on the green. Pushes faded to the right and pulls drew to the left.

2) TGC seems to be picking up any movement within view of the device's camera as a shot. The shot resembles a poorly hit topped punch shot. These false reads were picked up when I was placing the ball, with my club, on the red laser dot (this is how I have always placed my ball with the Skytrak app and E6 - both have never read such movement as a golf shot). TGC also once picked up my foot, which stepped within about 18 inches of the unit, as a shot.

Based on these bugs it is my opinion that TGC on Skytrak is at the moment unplayable as a true sim combination. While it was fun to launch my short irons a mile, and to hit all of my long clubs and woods dead straight, it is playing more like a game than a sim. Until these problems are fixed I will not be using TGC since the outcome is that I will be teaching myself to swing improperly. I invested in Skytrak and TGC to improve my game accurately - this does not seem possible at this time.

[Tekbud]

Dissapointed to say the least.

[MrHogan]

I think folks desperately need to play a demo. The price tag is too high for these sort of issues. Hopefully its all fixable.
Out of interest what is the refund policy?

[ks-man]

I wouldn't think that the calculation engine would be different for TGC for Skytrak as it is for the version us GC2 users have. If you post a few of your specs I can put them into Optimal Flight and let you know what I'm getting. I assume you aren't playing a hole with a crazy downhill elevation change. Your best bet is to go to one of the Edge ranges and take a few shots. I'm guessing that Skytrak gives the same readings as the GC2 does. If I can get ball speed, launch angle, azimuth (left/right ball direction), backspin and side spin I can put the numbers into the software. You want to pull these numbers from the Skytrak unit rather than the analysis screen in TGC. Of course confirm that the numbers are the same in TGC that you are seeing from your Skytrak.

I know that TGC has been working on the calculation engine b/c low backspin shots were coming up too short but I don't think any of their changes have been released yet.

[DougieMn]

I have played two rounds, on two different courses (both labeled as ProTee which I believe means they are good for sim play) on TGC with my Skytrak and have encountered the following two consistent errors. FYI - I posted something similar on another thread but thought this topic was deserving of its own conversation. If you are experiencing the same thing please chime in.

1) Distances are very off. It seems that this affects higher lofted clubs more than lower lofted clubs and drivers. For example, my 9 iron IRL carries about 140 yards. In TGC with the skytrak it was carrying about 170 yards. While I would love to be able to hit it that far I know that this is well beyond what can be accomplished by the pros.

My guess is that TGC is not calculating backspin and sidespin into their ball flight algorithms correctly. Clubs that produce more backspin are carrying way too far and are rolling on the green without any checking.

I believe that sidespin is not being calculated correctly simply because I have never hit so many drives and long irons so straight in my life. I fight a strong draw and every long club I hit went very straight in TGC with Skytrak. When I pushed or pulled a ball it seemed that the HLA was accurate (i.e. if I pushed it right the ball went right) but each pull or push was straight without a draw or fade.

Just to make myself feel more sane I played a few holes at Wade Hampton on E6 after my last round on TGC and the ball flight was what I expected. Distances were as normal and balls were showing backspin on the green. Pushes faded to the right and pulls drew to the left.

2) TGC seems to be picking up any movement within view of the device's camera as a shot. The shot resembles a poorly hit topped punch shot. These false reads were picked up when I was placing the ball, with my club, on the red laser dot (this is how I have always placed my ball with the Skytrak app and E6 - both have never read such movement as a golf shot). TGC also once picked up my foot, which stepped within about 18 inches of the unit, as a shot.

Based on these bugs it is my opinion that TGC on Skytrak is at the moment unplayable as a true sim combination. While it was fun to launch my short irons a mile, and to hit all of my long clubs and woods dead straight, it is playing more like a game than a sim. Until these problems are fixed I will not be using TGC since the outcome is that I will be teaching myself to swing improperly. I invested in Skytrak and TGC to improve my game accurately - this does not seem possible at this time.

I have encountered the same.

Distances with SkyTrak range program seem extremely accurate to how far I hit my clubs based on also using GC2 and Flightscope at some of the teaching facilities I go to. Distances within TGC are beyond what I'm capable of producing and agree it seems worse with the higher lofted clubs, woods and long irons seem more realistic. 99% of the time my normal ballflight is a draw and have yet to see a draw produced on TGC even when trying to snap hook it so something is not quite right with sidespin as well.

ProTee has been incredibly helpful with the launch and I am more than pleased with the assistance I received after falling through the cracks of the autoresponse email list. I am hopeful this issue will be resolved and cannot understand why it's only happening with some of the early adopters and the rest feel it's nuts on for simulation. For me it's only a game as of now.

p.s. I also get a lot of "shadow shots"

[ks-man]

See my post above yours. Post some numbers and I'll put them in Optimal Flight. At that point at least we'll know where to problem lies. Does the Skytrak give a readout on the device of the measured statistics like the GC2 does?

[ProTee United]

We also see these shots, but only when we try to force it and we also see the exact same thing in the SkyTrak PC program. No problems when playing normally.

8 irons going anywhere from 140 carry upto 170. The big difference we see is launch angle and backspin. The 170y ones measure ~4500 rpm backspin and the 140yard measure 7000+. This makes the difference when the ball speed is the same. Also a little waggle around the red dot will trigger the SkyTrak. A waggle in the SkyTrak PC program does exactly the same thing. However we can not get this trigger to launch a shot.

TGC does not trigger shots or measure backspin. It just uses the data the unit provides. We will further investigate. Check the SkyTrak SDK and Firmware versions showing in the interface. Ours are both at version 1.4.

The algorithms are the same for all hardware.

[DougieMn]

My version shows 1.4

KS-Man- Shot data is shown on screen for a few seconds in TGC before advancing to the next shot. I'll jot down data and put into optimal flight when I get a chance, but still not sure why it's happeneing. I haven't experienced this in my range sessions with SkyTrak software hitting 100's if not 1000 shots. My appoach shots into the greens on TGC shoot over the green 50-75% of the time because of overclubing.

I'll have to have 2 different club mindsets.....one for TGC.....one for on the real course lol.

[goodmatt78]

I am really glad that i have held off on purchasing....at least until these issues are resolved. Everyone seems to bag on e6, but if they fix the putting and chipping...it is returning to the top of the list. I also know they will offer an updated demo. e6 doesn't need an Ipad app and wireless keyboard to play efficiently, the ball flights are good (yes..long irons are a bit generous), you can easily play different tees, centerline offset is available, online tourneys are great. The ONLY downside I can see if the demo issues are resolved is inferior graphics....but then again you don't need a new PC.


Come on PG!!!!!

[ProTee United]

E6 is a great product. E6 is available on ProTee as well. Lots of happy players..

[Brettster]

I've been playing on E6 lately at a local sports pub, and I feel E6 is good at some things, like mid to short irons, but it has a heck of a time measuring direction properly: huge problem.

Every time I'm on the E6 I can bomb drivers 260-300 - as straight as an arrow, up into tiny/narrow fairway chutes, and there's now way I can do that IRL, at least not every drive.

My playing buddy hits many shots right, and left, and they never move the correct distance to the side - ever. So, I'm really flabbergasted in understanding why all the praise for E6, if this is as 'good as it gets', then I'm really going to be disappointed when I make a purchase. I'm hoping either PG, or TGC with a SkyTrak can match my game closer in real life, otherwise, I'm just 'playing a game', and wasting my practice time indoors in the winter, in fact, it may make me worse, instead of improving my game.

[wbond]

Man that sucks. I'm not experiencing any of these problems with mine. All my higher lofted clubs are flying as expected so far. I have yet to get the length that you guys are seeing with 8 irons and below. Also, my draws are getting picked up every time. I was about to question whether or not TGC may be overestimating draws.

[DougieMn]

Very strange. I wonder what percentage of us are experiencing this.......I was going to invite the buddies over to play but as it sits now they would just laugh.

Waiting to hear from ProTee if an install should be performed again or what to try.

[ProTee United]

DougieMn you say you see a lot of shadow shots. Can you describe these shadow shots? Is your unit launching shots of X distance on its own? and is there a way to reproduce it somehow?

[DougieMn]

It will produce a shot when sometimes addressing the ball, sometimes when taking a practice swing, sometimes when repositioning the ball very gingerly. The shot is a worm burner that goes maybe 20-40 yards. I'll pay closer attention to the flight parameters when I mess with it today. Frustrating. I'm either going back to replay a shot or sailing the green with my amped irons. Feeling slightly deflated after the buildup and anticipation.

[ks-man]

It sounds like the Skytrak doesn't give a readout of the numbers and distances like the GC2 does. That makes it a lot easier. I have issues with low spin shots coming up way short in TGC. I can tell it is occurring though b/c for example on a flat elevation shot I can see a 5 iron say 165 carry on my GC2 but only go 130 in the game. I know that occurs when my backspin drops to about 2k rpm for example. If it is in the high 3000s or low 4000s I don't see the issue. As ProTee United said above, the numbers on the analysis screen are the same ones the unit gives off so the best solution is to simply put the numbers into Optimal Flight and see what the readout is. It could be that the distance is correct in the game but the Skytrak is reading something incorrectly. The main think you want to determine is if it is a hardware issue (with the Skytrak) or a software issue (with TGC). If Optimal Flight is saying those carry numbers are correct than perhaps your Skytrak is misreading the ballspeed occasionally.

[wbond]

You get your 5 iron to only spin in the 2k range, that seems quite low even on a mishit. Since the game is showing what the measurement is, we can only show whether or not there is an issue with the game vs optimal flight. We can't tell whether the unit is misreading though, that would have to be done against another piece of hardware.

[ks-man]

I haven't paid much attention recently to my numbers but here is a thread discussing TGC carry algorithm with a lot of my data. It looks like then I was generally hitting my 5 iron with mid 3k backspin numbers and would occasionally dip into the high 2ks. I've made some adjustments to my swing and perhaps and hitting the ball cleaner however the carry distances should be similar in TGC vs. the GC2 or Optimal Flight. A lot of people have mentioned the issues with low distances for low spin drives. My understanding is that ProTee has been looking into the carry algorithm for TGC and perhaps this will be incorporated in the 3.0 version.

I was wondering if pieces of that found its way into the Skytrak version that was just released but it sounds like the issues are few and far between.

[keither5150]

I know how it can be extremely frustrating when the sim is not working properly. A while back I had issues with mine. It took 3 or 4 hours of testing before I nailed down the problem ( GSA user ). How come some have issues and others don't? How come the skytrack software works, but TGC is having issues? TGC will launch the ball based on the system's data. Somehow the interface between TGC and ST is different on some units than on others. Seems to me that ST needs a mandatory firmware update to address these issues. I hope everyone gets their units working properly. TGC (when working properly) is by far the best sim option. I have tried E6, red chain, Perfect golf ( on the PC ) TGC is head and shoulders better than any other option although PG has a few features that I would like to see adopted by TGC.

[Mike Z]

2) TGC seems to be picking up any movement within view of the device's camera as a shot. The shot resembles a poorly hit topped punch shot. These false reads were picked up when I was placing the ball, with my club, on the red laser dot (this is how I have always placed my ball with the Skytrak app and E6 - both have never read such movement as a golf shot). TGC also once picked up my foot, which stepped within about 18 inches of the unit, as a shot.

I have noticed SkyTrak trigger on like events. The SkyTrak app does not recognize these as shots. Neither did the E6 demo (though it did frequently require a unit reset to sync back up with the software. The difference, I believe, is that the SkyTrak app and TGC are using different criteria for detecting and evaluating a potential false trigger event.

[Sascha1818]

But that could be because the app doesn't have any chipping and putting greens so it could basically say everything under x mph is not a real shot. And it might be the same with the E6 demo. That's probably why we couldn't get a short chip to work.

[Mike Z]

To the best of my recollection, the unit behaved differently between swings, chips and putts. For example you could not putt from the fringe with the same stroke for a putt from similar length. So, to me, there has to be more to it than just speed. In any event either the box or the software needs to decide shot/not a shot somehow.

Its all just guessing because I didn't write the software or know how the API is set-up and talks to the device and at what level the shot/not a hot decision is made. I guessed at the software level because of the behavior of the skytrak when attached to the app versus sim software. In any event the software and the unit need to be in sync and communicate about what mode to be in and what are the results of shots. I am guessing also that the software tells the unit to be in one of three modes: putt, chip, swing and that the unit detects something sends info to the software and it decides to use it or reject it. Either way then tells the unit to go to ready and what mode to be in.

[jrz]

Does anyone know what software has been used to record the PC screen with a little inset of the swing area? I've seen a few videos like this posted in various threads. I'd like to use that to show the false triggering I am experiencing.

[Mike Z]

Debut in a screen capture software I have used before. I *think* you can get a demo copy and that should work for you.

[ks-man]

I just use NVidia Shadowplay. You have the option of embedding a webcam in one of the corners. It is free assuming you have an NVidia card and is in GEForce Experience. You can see what it looks like at my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYf78p6c5AawMIi-8srjlcw

[jrz]

Thank you ks-man - I saw ShadowPlay in the control panel options but didn't know what it was.

[keither5150]

I think that a few of you may be looking in the wrong direction. TGC is the end result of what your hardware tells it to do. Shot or no shot, TGC only does what the hardware tells it to do. That being said. What makes your skytrack different than one that works properly? Or what is different about the communication between your skytrack and TGC. That is what you need to find out. Troubleshooting TGC for mishits or misreads is like asking the bullet why it came out of the gun. Somewhere along the lines, TGC is not getting all of the information needed or bad information. Makes sense when you think about it.

[jrz]

If it's the hardware causing the problem then why is the same not happening on E6 or the Skytrak app?

[Js1010]

If you are having major distance issues with tgc , you should a post a screen shot of the TGC shot analysis window. This will show the ball launch numbers that were fed to TGC by skytrak and will show where the problem lies.

Keither is absolutely correct in saying that TGC is only doing what skytrak sends to it.

Skytrak will send the following values it measured to TGC via the interface.

Ballspeed, Launch Angle, BallPath, SideSpin, and Backspin.

From here TGC has its own carry algorithm to determine how far the ball will go. TGC has some issues with carry in certain areas - mostly on very low or very high backspin shots. In general shots should not be 40 yards off with a 7 Iron unless the backspin number fed to TGC was way off. In this case extremely low, maybe.

For a 7 Iron - backspin should be in the 5-8k range. I have heard that a good backspin target goes along with the club in the following manner

6iron - 6000k backspin
7iron - 7000k
8Iron - 8000k
Etc..


Also, when doing carry testing you need to be a a flat range with no wind otherwise TGC is taking into account elevation, and wind if you have it on. A severe downhill shot could give you 40 yard more carry with a 7i.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bubba22]

I agree with JS. You need to post screenshots from TGC showing ball data.