Bushnell Announces Launch Pro Partnership with Foresight Sports

[John6577]

Reading some of the recent comments is making me think sticking with the GC2 is the right move. Supporting 3rd Party software for the GC3 is crucial in many buyers eyes especially mine and if I can use TGC19 with my GC2 and it work fine then I am ok living without some of the additional data the GC3 offers. My biggest concern is GC2 prices are going to plummet now and by the time I sell my unit, take a massive financial hit on it since its a new unit I bought awhile back and just started using, what I have already paid for TGC and then buy a new GC3 unit I am out a ton of money. Could have gotten a Quad with all that money.

Once the GC2 kicks the bucket then I will see what is out there but unless Foresight gets their software with the times or opens the door for more 3rd Party software such as TGC then I am not even sure I will be interested in buying another Foresight product.

[Gresh12]

For what it’s worth if I already owned a GC2 I’d keep it personally. I can’t bring myself to buy a 10 year old product that may not get future support from its creator but they are great devices so if I owned one I’d use it until it stopped working and couldn’t be economically fixed.

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi John6577

You might be able to add an HMT for peanuts in a few months time.

I think users should just forget about GC3 and its associated shinanigans and go straight for a base model Quad and unlock club data later.

GC2 was the skytrak of its day, but foresight are moving away from the affordable hardware model toward the premium trackman route while trying to pull a fast one over new entrants who would love to own a foresight LM at the same time.

[bubbtubbs]

I understand the complaints that GC2 could be upgraded modularly whereas the GC3 and 4 cannot, but a GC2+HMT is roughly 15k (CPO) and a fully unlocked Quad without the extra putting optimization is 17k. The GC3 is 7k - less than half the price - and offers enough club data points to satisfy most users.

Bang per buck it's still a pretty good deal if you're mostly going to use it for range work and FSX sim play, plus it competes with the QED and EyeXO.

If it ends up depreciating the used sale value of GC2 that's a bummer for current owners (a risk with any niche electronics purchase) but it means the ones that do hit the market may sell for less and they're still compatible with TGC, so what's the problem?

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi bubbtubbs

Most ordinary golfers are happy with skytrak.

Good golfers want GC2's and add HMT over time.

GC3 will always leave a good golfer wanting more, and will be a pain to sell.

QED and EyeXo can use any 3rd party software including TGC as far as i know, GC3 likely will not be compatible with TGC for awhile (till hacked) or at all.

Used market for GC2 will be risky in 9 -12 months time, people could drop 2-3k on a unit that cant be fixed.

They should have kept the GC2 and lowered the price with an added subscription model for software.

Locked Quad is the new entry point for a foresight product in my view.

[bubbtubbs]

Most users being happy with Skytrak sort of illustrates the point of why Foresight wouldn't be all that motivated to push the price lower. Not sure what you meant by that.

QED and EyeXO aren't portable, or usable outdoors without a sheltering structure, so no turf range work. QED requires marked balls (may not fit your game ball) and has iffy club data. EyeXO is 3k more expensive than GC3. They all occupy different niches for different user needs at their price points. Someone who wants some good club metrics (most people have no use for dynamic lie and face can be extrapolated from the ball curvature and measured club path) and intends to move the unit around has a definite use for this over either Uneekor unit.

And what about all those GC2 clones we'll be seeing in the next two years? Surely there will be a market for parts besides the GC2 flash units if Foresight has discontinued their official support? There's already user-created superflashes.

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi bubbtubbs

I just don't get discontinuing GC2 + HMT and replacing with GC3.
Why not keep everything and add GC3, would GC3 not sell if they kept GC2?
I hope GC2 clones do come along, if not, its a tragedy to see it fade away.

I've had skytrak for 5 years now, i'm still waiting for a hack to access TGC2019 without paying a subscription.

How will GC3 subscription access be hacked if foresight/bushnell control access like skytrak does?

How will you get parts for GC2 if the suppliers no longer make parts, like discontinued flightscope products.

I know skytrak has been killing it since 2018, but i didn't think skytrak would chase foresight away, if anything, i thought foresight would drop GC2 prices, flatten skytrak and totally take over the whole 2 to 10k market.

Anyway, its just my thoughts, doesn't mean much.

[jhp016s]

Huh, I just realized this didn’t have the ability to provide club face data, only club path. Bummer. No dice for me.

[bubbtubbs]

That's fair, though as long as you have accurately measured path, AoA and ball data, you can easily figure out what the face did at impact based on the flight. Up to the user if that's worth an extra 3k for EyeXO or 6k for unlocked Quad.

[jhp016s]

True bubbtubbs, I haven’t pulled the trigger on eyexo or quad yet because hoping the next launch monitor out would be the one. No doubt the GC3 will be a great unit though. Maybe I will sharpen up
My math skills and buy the GC3, it is tempting since the only thing I want that’s missing is the face angle.

[Tommyseb]

There’s impact location and gear effect, and also lie angle, lie angle can greatly influence the ball starting direction, if you have a face square to the path, a 5 degree toe down v 5 degree toe up will yield quite different ball flights..

[DS12]

Just saw where Foresight might offer the GC3 stand alone at $4k...I wonder if that includes club data (if used with FSX 2020 or whatever new one they're coming out with is called). If you can buy the GC3 for $4k without software and not be required a $100 annual subscription with the Bushnell Launch Pro, that might be the route to take if TGC gets access to the GC3 data.

I might hold out hope for that one...

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi DS12

That won't happen.

Very few people would buy foresight sim software if given the choice, hence no choice, compulsory purchase or subscription.

[Jnc10]

My rep told me they will sell the GC3 with no FSX starting 2022. Not sure if this means you have to prove you already own it or they are just going to let you buy it without it

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi Everyone

Just saw this on youtube comments re bushnell launch pro, sounds awful.

"In case ppl are wondering, it's $3k for the unit, but in reality you have to go on an annual subscription as well. $100 annually gets you a 2D range with no simulator capability and some locked ball data (backspin, side spin, tilt axis) . $400 annually gets you a 3D range, foresight only sim with 5 courses, with the same ball data as the $100 plan. $800 annually gets you 10 courses, all the ball data unlocked and ability to use 3rd party Sims - think that means e6, not any of the others so far."

[HappyGilmore102]

HI Bmerrill

If I were you I would wait till the PGA show in January before buying.

I think new units might be released by rapsodo and full swing and maybe even earnst sport.

Skytrak and Mevo + will also probably have big releases like fusion tracking and maybe calculated club data update for skytrak.

If you cant wait that long, just get a Garmin R10 to carry you over, should be able to sell it again no problem.

You can't go wrong with skytrak, I use it myself, but the product is 6 years old already.

[Brettster]

bmerrill - you have another option to consider. A used ProTee, or refurbished unit. Just make sure you get one made after October 2018 that has the newer cameras. Something like the BasePack II that ProTee United is selling , if you want to buy new. They also fit smaller spaces, I'm squeezing mine into 12'x16' shed (internal 11'5" x 15'5").

[bmerrill]

aussiebenny, HappyGilmore102, Brettster, thank you for the insightful comments, much appreciated. I can certainly wait until January, I was thinking of at least waiting until Black Friday, assuming the vendors may offer a discount, but that may be wishful thinking....

I'll take a look at the Protee as well, but I would suspect if we're so close to the PGA show, it probably makes sense to wait. I have a hitting net and mat currently but I realized quickly hitting balls into a net without knowing what its doing doesn't really help my game (actually can hurt if I'm just hitting incorrectly and training muscle memory to slice or hook without knowing).

[aussiebenny]

Here's the email content (screenshot) that Bushnell sent out 3 days back:

https://i.ibb.co/2hMYtqB/Image-250.png

Basically, except the club path, Mevo+ gives you rest of the data that GC3 does without needing club stickers for half the price and no ongoing costs. Though I understand that not everyone has the environment in their home for a radar unit, so in that case GC3 may be the next best portable unit to get some measured club data. (another option at similar outright cost would be the QED, which imo is much better than the GC3 if you don't need a portable unit)

[darter79]

comparing the mevo+ to gc3 in terms of accuracy is laughable. The mevo+ data is so bad the last time I tried it which was near a year ago now. GC3 is basically as accurate as a quad. Mevo+ is not.

[aussiebenny]

In the past year, Mevo+ has had a number of firmware updates to make it more accurate and more tolerant to environmental interference. So you shouldn't write it off based on old experience. (also, you could have also had a bad unit which does happen)

Considering Mevo+ is very close to Trackman indoors and near identical outdoors according to nearly every comparison reviews, I assume it's good enough for most people who cannot afford a Trackman or GC Quad. Heck, even the GC3 is 3.5x the price of Mevo+ to get a similar outright package with no subscription costs. So the Mevo+ still has no direct competition anywhere near its price category atm for what you get, how much it can still make you a better player than without one.

[fortysixandtwo]

I’m not really seeing how the gc3 is going to make the gc2 plummet when you can use it with all the 3rd party software and you can add an hmt for full club data..

[HappyGilmore102]

Hi wzjy47

I read it on this forum somewhere, i will try to find the post and link if i can.

From what i remember that was one for the reasons why CPO HMT's were recently sold very cheap by foresight.

I wouldn't say its a fact, but this is foresight we are talking about.

Flightscope usually support discontinued hardware repairs until they are out of repair stock and then that is it, can't see why foresight would be different, flightscope customer service is supposed to be excellent, foresight not so good.

I think foresight will try to push GC2 repairs to upgrade to GC3.

[wzjy47]

Thanks! No big deal if you can't find it...That would be a questionable decision by Foresight in my opinion if that is the route they go...Folks spent a lot of money for a GC2 and/or a HMT and to have no repair options from Foresight after just a few years would be tough to justify...Also, sure how that would encourage someone to want to spend another $7K or $3k on a new unit with them unless they just give them a huge discount...

[HappyGilmore102]

wzjy47

If I recently bought a GC2 + HMT I wouldn't worry about repairs, the hardware is very good and should last a long time.

Its just going forward buying USED that I would be a little worried, since you don't know what you're getting till you receive it.

There are some very old units out there at this stage.

[Mootej]

Pre-order on sale at 10:33AM:

https://www.bushnellgolf.com/products/launch-monitors/launch-pro/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Launch%20Pro%20-%20Pre-Order%20Live%20-%20full%20-%20send%20%28UApZg3%29&_kx=lBcMuATpWChRo_7ghfxZ5-7PEbo49omYHDB2T3Sf6nA%3D.XDCv4C

At noon, sold out.

[mgent]

I'm still up in the air on the Launch Pro / GC3 option... I've got an EYExo/TGC2019 set-up in my garage simulator, and was looking at these as I would like the option to bring with me to the range (in addition to the EYExo)... I originally bought the EYExo instead of the GCQuad due to easy RH/LH play, all the additional software costs, and limited courses. I really wish they would offer an 'outdoor' package or something similar - I don't necessarily want or need the full software/simulation capabilities of the Gold package or GC3, but almost exclusively want the more complete data... Having ball data only isn't that helpful at a range where I can see the ball (aside from spin), but the club data is what's most helpful for me... My ideal package would be the GC3 hardware, with ball/club data in the app (FSXmobile?)- without the courses, games, etc, and ideally for <$5k...

More on the business model topics, I did some more reading into the Foresight acquisition by Vista Outdoor... Foresight's profitability was pretty shocking! In 2021 they expect to do $100m in revenue, with EBITDA of around $50m, which is a massive margin profile for a company like this... No wonder they don't want to move away from their current software revenue model - they have all the ability in the world to make the packages more reasonable, but it was working pretty good for them as-is... With the acquisition, Vista is going to be more interested in maintaining that margin even while growing the top line more slowly, as Vista's margin is only ~15% this year (after a few years of 6-7%), and improving margin is a big focus for them with investors, and in fact highlighted that point when talking about the foresight deal... Unfortunately, unless their existing premium platforms start to get hammered, I'd be surprised if we saw them change course with their revenue/software model...

[Gresh12]

I like your consideration of the financial picture but 2021 may not be the best benchmark year. In my experience the pandemic did one of two things to most companies, massively increased profit or massively reduced it.

I’d imagine they had limited R&D, marketing, etc expenses this year compared to massive demand for launch monitors. You can argue they’ve developed the GC3 but that’s not a ton of R&D as it’s just stripping down a quad. In practice they’ve sold a bunch of Quads and run out their GC2 stock boosting revenue on high margin in production (or even stockpiled old stock) of devices.

However I totally agree that expectations of the purchaser will be aligned with a high margin business going forward (likely more in line with whatever 2019 or a normal year looked like).

I don’t like the way they’ve bundled things and it’s keeping me on the sidelines fit now but I do agree that until they have excess supply or someone else hits they’re space (great accuracy but better pricing) there’s little motivation to move off this.

[mgent]

Gresh12 - You may very well be right about 2021, but those are the only financials I had access to... Certainly their marketing would be down, and R&D somewhat, although likely less so, but certainly Vista would be aware of those trends...

- The Purchase price of $474m includes $60m of tax benefits, so the real value was around $414m - that's only 4x revenue and 8x EBITDA...
- The revenue milestone (which is more of a change in control provision for the named employees) has a floor of $320m and a target of $426m cumulative revenue for the time period of Sept 1, 2021 to Dec 31, 2023 - so an avg of $150-$200m per year for the next 2 years - that's 50-100% growth off of this year, which is aggressive even with GC3 launching... Keeping GCQuad sales flat, that equates to 15,000 GC3 units each of the next 2 years (or more assuming a revenue split with Bushnell), which seems like a lot of units

[aussiebenny]

Just get the mevo+ for the range outings. It's technically better than the GC3 outdoors (even more so on grass or sand) and would be more accurate as well since the Mevo+ tracks the actual ball flight up to 100 yards. Only $2k and no subscription for advanced range/combine software (FS Golf & FS Skills) with measured ball and club data + E6 Connect basic iOS license. No brainer imo.

[shack993]

More on the business model topics, I did some more reading into the Foresight acquisition by Vista Outdoor... Foresight's profitability was pretty shocking! In 2021 they expect to do $100m in revenue, with EBITDA of around $50m, which is a massive margin profile for a company like this... No wonder they don't want to move away from their current software revenue model - they have all the ability in the world to make the packages more reasonable, but it was working pretty good for them as-is... With the acquisition, Vista is going to be more interested in maintaining that margin even while growing the top line more slowly, as Vista's margin is only ~15% this year (after a few years of 6-7%), and improving margin is a big focus for them with investors, and in fact highlighted that point when talking about the foresight deal... Unfortunately, unless their existing premium platforms start to get hammered, I'd be surprised if we saw them change course with their revenue/software model...

I want to believe this but I struggle to believe this. No way Foresight has 50% EBITDA margins. The R&D plus software costs are huge from a people perspective. This would mean their gross margins are 80-90% on the hardware alone.

But, I could be wrong. Perfect time to sell.

[JPXG]

Hi Everyone

Just saw this on youtube comments re bushnell launch pro, sounds awful.

"In case ppl are wondering, it's $3k for the unit, but in reality you have to go on an annual subscription as well. $100 annually gets you a 2D range with no simulator capability and some locked ball data (backspin, side spin, tilt axis) . $400 annually gets you a 3D range, foresight only sim with 5 courses, with the same ball data as the $100 plan. $800 annually gets you 10 courses, all the ball data unlocked and ability to use 3rd party Sims - think that means e6, not any of the others so far."

You get total spin.

[closedclubface]

If I bought the base model, can anyone confirm whether I would have access to some kind of skills challenge using an ipad, is that part of FSX Pro?

[4evaunderpar]

I also forgot to add that, as an owner of a GC2/HMT, this development may actually HELP keep the value up of these units. Because while I believe this new unit will be a slicker and slightly better version of the GC2 standing alone, the GC2 will retain its value due to 1) the ability to add on detailed club data and 2) being more wide open for 3rd party software via the ability to connect via bluetooth.

No way this new unit will have bluetooth enabled. Will be just like the Quad in that respect.

This post has aged well, as well as your comment on FS making the GC2 + HMT too good. It must have irritated them a lot!

I think many SIM enthusiasts are still hunting for GC2‘s, despite the launch of the GC3 / BLP.

First impressions of resale value for GC2’s are good: I’ve just sold my GC2 in Germany for nearly 4000 euros (no box or software).

The GC3 looks sleek and modern but essentially it can’t deliver what a GC2 + HMT can. As for the Quad, I think it may even go up in price due to exclusivity. Like I’ve said before, things like dynamic lie angle and closure rate really set it apart from the rest, even TrackMan.

[GungHoGolf]

We're a Foresight dealer - comes with everything as if you bought it direct from them.

[kbrownpa]

Foresight removed the GC2 from their website. Thanks.

[GungHoGolf]

It's sold now.

[dinospumoni]

I don't really understand how someone can think a GC2 is a better deal than a GC3.

With the GC3 you get a more sturdy non-folding unit that aligns itself the same way a GCQuad does, with all FSX software, 10 courses, AoA, clubhead speed, and club path for $6,995.

GC2's are still for sale on Ebay for an avg price of around $4,750. I see TGC 2019 licenses selling for $950.

So for $1,400 less, you get a used discontinued outdated launch monitor that has a flash that needs to be occasionally replaced, no clubhead data, and no guarantee that TGC 2019 will have the same following after FSX Compete and Play is rolled out and all the new GC3 and Launch Pro users are online.

A GC2 with HMT and TGC 2019 is still going to run you $10,000+ and has only a few more clubhead metrics that might be useful to someone that wants the unit for game improvement and sim play. Not to mention the fact that i'm almost certain you could back into clubface angle with the data that a GC3 already gives you.

[dinospumoni]

StalefishFS3 Post a link to a GC2 with HMT AND software that is selling for $8k

[StalefishFS3]

Dino,

My post specifically was referencing a GC2/HMT only. You can use any type of software with that combo, that is, you are not locked into FSX. So a 7000-8000 range for the hardware only is a pretty good estimate, IMO.

[Wizard of Coz]

Stalefish what's the new 🤴? Somebody knocking foresight and trackman out? Uneekor? 18-24 months? 🤔 💭 🤔 💭

[Masterblaster]

How many of y’all are considering the silver package?

My main goal is to be able play sim golf as accurately as possible. Club data would be nice but I have a pretty good idea of what the club did based on ball flight. Seems like the silver package isn’t getting much love but it looks pretty enticing to me.

[Wizard of Coz]

You sure you want a subscription based launch monitor?
🔥 💸 🔥

[Brettster]

Wow Wizard of Coz that's a loaded question! I've often thought of 'subscription golf' being a problem too and despised it in the past - but sometimes it seems a necessity unless some of the bigger companies change their pricing structure (which I doubt they will). SkyTrak has their Game Improvement Package, FS has there subscription and TruGolf/E6 have their own as well... seems it never ends, and that many do not want to offer a lifetime deal (only E6 which is exhorbitant, and TGC).