Software, Rewinds, Tournament Play

[aja]

I have to say that I am disappointed with the direction to not allow rewinds in future tournaments, since the technology platform that is the most likely to produce misreads is ProTee and I am a ProTee user. That leaves me, and other ProTee owners the option "deal with it" to address misreads.

It's clear that there are participants who abuse the rewind feature in tournaments It has been documented several times. I don't understand why some sort of automated review mechanism (software) has not been instituted to track the use of rewinds. I'm pretty sure that it could be done. That would remove the onus of manual review by tournament organizers to check for the legitimacy of scores.

What is telling is that the overwhelming number of votes for no rewinds comes from those with launch monitors that "never" have misreads. That of course makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that some of those people using these technologies are also those guilty of cheating. It's pretty blatant when participants with "no misread" monitors have multiple rewinds in a round. Guess these are the same guys who "fluff up" their lies on the course.

Is it really not possible to use a bit of software to highlight rewinds in tournament rounds?

[keither5150]

For the record....I did vote for removing rewinds from Tour play. That being said. Sometimes a misread may have catastrophic results. Say you are chipping 12 yards away and the ball flies 280 yards. That misread will add more than a stroke to your card. ProTee and GSA users can have to occasional misread like this. All of these misreads have a direct cause which in most cases can be eliminated. The ban of rewinds on the tour is going to happen. This ban may motivate players to find the causes of a misread and eliminate them. I know that GSA has added numerous features to their software to help reduce misreads. For the most part, what GSA has done has been excellent. When you have a massive FOV like these systems....sometimes, Stuff happens.
I am considering sending GSA a list of rules to implement to maybe reduce the misreads even further. For example.

less than 900 backspin = no shot
more than 10 degrees HA = no shot
more than 50 degrees LA = no shot
less than 2 mph ball speed = no shot
more than 200 mph ball speed = no shot
more than 30 degrees SA = no shot.
more than 12000 rpm backspin = no shot.

You could go even further....for example. Less than 50 yards from the pin, all shots over 80 mph = no shot...… Less than 25 yards from the pin....disregard all shots over 45mph.

GSA and ProTee have certain limitations just like ST and the GC2 has it's own limitations. My sim's putting is accurate within 1/10 of a degree for direction. Some sims are extremely frustrating to putt on. The tour allows the straight putting patch for such systems. Any system is allowed to use it. I choose not to use the patch as it takes away from the accuracy of sim. Even the GC2 uses putting forgiveness. Most of the users have it set on 2, I believe.

Mthunt has made it very clear to what is allowed regarding rewinds. Soon that will not be a concern for him.

Here is an example of a legit rewind. A stray ball in the FOV was responsible for the misread. If I was paying attention, this would not be needed.


Is it possible to have rewinds count as strokes? This way, if the putt goes 280 yards..... a guy can take the putt again without using his 3 wood on the next shot. Take the shot again...add the stroke. That would make more sense than not using the rewind at all.

[Jwheels9876]

. If only people didn't abuse the rewind system, maybe we could avoid things like that happening and costing you mulitple strokes. Take your rewind and hit again, no issue. But then the next guy lips out a 7 footer and figures what the heck, I want that one back and hits it again for his par...

[colinjm18]

Having the rewind count as a stroke is a good idea but I would go one farther and add two strokes for long irons/woods as most people tend to rewind them shots and just one stroke for pitches/chips and putting.

[keither5150]

As a GSA user, the only misreads that I have had since the alpha was released is when I checked my control panel after a shot... and I leave it in the data screen..... when you press "Q" there, it resends the data and the ball flies. I was on the fringe and watched the ball go 180 yards as I was attempting to look at the breaks on the green. Hmmmm.. That would suck if that was a tour round. But it would be entertaining for anyone playing my ghost. During a tour round, I would make sure that I didn't do that.

[Trickle007]

You could go even further....for example. Less than 50 yards from the pin, all shots over 80 mph = no shot...… Less than 25 yards from the pin....disregard all shots over 45mph.

I think from 50 yards with an aggressive swing trying to lift the ball in the air and you misjudge and hit the ball thin you may produce an 80mph ball speed.

[mthunt]

I'm getting ready to start playing in the tournaments. I'm NOT a fan of having people use the Rewind feature. I would not like to play a tournament and be honest and know others are using mulligans when they think they have a misread. Trickle007 is right. Think how many times you hit a good shot on a real golf course and it comes up short, left or right. I had a Skytrak the 1st year of sim golf. I had so many "No Reads" I finally got frustrated and bought a GC2. Best thing I ever did. I've had the GC2 for 2 years now and have never had a misread or never had a no read. Not once! If people are having major problems I would say sell the Skytrak and get a GC2. You won't have any issues any longer. It's that good!

For the tournaments, why do they allow you to boost your clubs 5%. Again I'm not a fan of playing with others in a tournament knowing they are boosting their shots. I know it's only 5% but why do we allow this? I thought the consensus was both the Skytrak and GC2 are accurate. No reason for boosting any shots.

What do you do in the tournaments for putting? That's the only area I see that can have a bad read where you get a big push or pull sometimes. I would only be a fan for increasing accuracy on the putts. What is the tournament rule on putts? Thanks

+or- 5% is allowed on any setting. It’s not about boost but about tweaking a sensor system. 5% boost isn’t changing anyone’s life but it may allow someone to adjust spin.

[Mike80]

Ok that makes sense. I know there are some other sim setups that need some tweaking. That's what I love about the GC2. No tweaking. Set it down and it just works and is always accurate.

[stevnkrn]

For what it is worth, I have a GSA PX5 system and rarely ever have a missed shot or a misread. When I do, the issue can usually be traced to debris in the floor sensor, a previously hit ball that is in the camera view or a random lighting issue. I am lucky in that I have an environment in which it is pretty easy for me to control the lighting, and the other issues are few and far between. My point is that it possible on a GSA system similar to mine to get consistent results if care is taken in system setup and during tournament play. I should mention that I have had the Q button issue keither5150 mentioned, but thankfully never in a tournament round. When I'm playing a tournament round I pay close attention to button pushes and where balls are on the floor. I should also mention that I have an older system that uses a floor mounted camera trigger so I don't have to deal with the large field of view issue people with the newer Line Scan Camera trigger systems have to deal with. A couple of years ago I considered switching to the Line Scan Camera trigger but Martin convinced me to stick with what I had. I'm glad I did. It works great and I don't have to worry about a shot firing when I walk around to pick up balls. GSA is constantly making improvements and they have done a lot recently to try and reduce misreads caused by bright objects being mistaken for balls in flight.

[keither5150]

The main advantage of a line scan camera is that you don't have to putt over a sensor. GSA has also added VPC ( max valid pixel count). The feature allows you to walk freely through the trigger area. A ball trace has about 300-2500 pixels lite up . When you walk through the FOV the amount of pixels lite up is 10000- 90000. So you can set the max at around 3500. Anything over that will result in a no launch. You are right, if you are careful of your surroundings, you can go 5 to 10 rounds without a misread.

[stevnkrn]

Before I started doing it I too thought putting over the floor mounted camera trigger would be problematic. However the effect is hardly noticeable. I have strips of black carpet on both sides of the sensor that are at the same height. On the screen side of the floor camera trigger the carpet provides a nice high contrast surface for the Hcam photos. On the opposite the carpet is just a spacer to keep the putts rolling height the same. There is only about a 1/2 inch gap between them that the putts have to jump. For putts the length we have in tournament play the ball easily spans the gap. If I had to putt a bunch of two footers things might be different but for putts longer than six feet it works fine. Actually better than fine. From all the stories I read from people with other systems that have putting issues I'm glad I have the system I have. Putting on my system feels very accurate and predictable.

[dborden0]

Occasionally. I get a misread on putts on my skytrak. It will just randomly putts like a foot. In all honesty though, I feel like the skytrak helps me more than it hurts. I'm a high handicap, and if I have a really bad shot, chances are the skytrak won't read it. I get way more if these than misreads. Probably not nearly as beneficial to you lower handicap players. I am fine with the no rewinds though. Wish we didn't have to institute it, but seems like there is definitely an abuse problem by a few.

[Stonebattle]

I like Pebble Beach, so I thought I would give the tour a try. I ended up 2 under on my last real round.

Off first tee, driver went right OB. It was hit just slightly heavy and right, it hit inside the maybe 1 to 1 1/2 degrees, but the simulated shot was right by more than I would have expected. Ended up with triple as the ball hit the hole and jumped out. I did not count this as a misread, although I suspect it was.

Par 3 hole 5. 8 iron off tee, the ball hit dead center on the screen and I thought it was going to be close. The simulated shot went far right down the hill onto the beach. Next shot was flushed with sand wedge, misread short and far right. Now I'm just below the hill and have to hit a high shot. My setup does not read shots above about mid 30 launch angles well for some reason. Next L wedge shot hit very well, misread short. Next L wedge shot also hit well and made it to the top of the hill. Chipped it in from there for a double.

Par 5 hole 6. Hit a 3 wood with to much fade and it was read correctly. Had to hit another rather high shot from the Par 3 6^th hole tee box, L wedge shot misread short. Chipped up and the putt hit the hole and popped out for a bogie.

Hate to say it, but my head is not really in the game at this point in time.

Par 4 hole 8. Good drive, 3 iron misread right onto the beach. The ball hit almost dead center on the screen with what felt like a bit of a fade. The simulated shot went several degrees right with a fade. Ended up with double.

Par 4 hole 10. Bad drive that was on me. Hit 7 iron back onto fairway. L wedge pitch misread long by perhaps double, anyway way to far. Ended up with double.

Par 4 hole number 11. Drive flushed and hit the center of the screen. I would say it should have been a fade. Simulated ball went way right with a fade OB. Ended up with double.

Par 4 16^th hole. Pulled my drive and 8 iron hit a tree, not good, but due to me. L wedge pitch, I think the launch angle was not read correctly, anyway the simulated shot went way to high, long and far right. Ended up with double, some of it me.

Par 5 18^th hole. Driver pulled, but stayed in. 3 wood shot a bit heavy, but hit just right of center on the screen. Simulated shot went way right OB. Pulled the next 3 wood shot left into water, that was me. Next one on the green. I think I had a 9.

The misreads I had today occurred much more often than I have been getting after all the work I have put in on my setup by more than 2 to one.

Some of my issues with Protee seem to be the way I swing. I tend to be more of a digger than a sweeper. That may add to the misreads.

I agree with the no rewinds policy. Still, tough day.

[Jwheels9876]

Honestly, if you think you're getting that many bad reads a round, you should look into getting a new launch monitor or somehow tweak your setup. I wouldn't even want to play anymore if I thought my machine was doing that to me.

[Stonebattle]

Ya, I hear you, but not in the financial cards for me right now. Still, I don't have that many misreads normally. That was an unusual round. I only had three today. They cost me three strokes or so, but not bad. I have a Protee base pack. Many seem to have better results than I have been getting. I've got to believe that it is setup related and that will get better as I improve it. Not much new feedback on those types of issues on this forum. Of course, there are a ton of threads discussing misreads for Protee. I've read most of them, but have not seen a lot of remedies. Maybe I miss them.

[rjd1975]

I have already posted on this and I think it is mostly a dead horse topic at this point but I have played in tournaments where I have taken rewinds and others where I haven't the first few tournaments that I placed in the top 3 (even won) I had taken a rewind and it ate at me. I believe they were justified but how would my competitors feel? Like others have said this is for fun but I want to win. I think the best thing is no rewinds but it will cost me (and others) at times. I guess we will have to deal with it. At least I will know that no one is out there questioning my victory if I am able to win again. Good luck folks...let's play Pebble

[mthunt]

The single biggest problem with rewinds is everyone thinks they are justified. Even if they took 30.

[rjd1975]

mthunt agreed. And I know it is harder for you or anyone else that has to try and deal with those of us trying to justify using them. Should make everyone's life a little easier. Even if there will be times we get screwed by a misread.

[Lgnir]

There have been some great points made here, and although I must have missed the poll, I would have voted for no rewinds even though I have been guilty of taking one a time or two. The times I take them though have been for the same reason. Hit a shot, laser goes out and comes back on. Hit another, same thing. Skull one, and it picks it up. In my mind, it was simply thinking "that was unfair, hit 3 with good contact, nothing, hit bad contact, it picks up the shot".

I will also say that I will only do it once per round, no matter how many times (and it has happened 3-4 times in a round before) it happens. Lately though, I haven't been doing it because screw it, it just a game. I'm not winning real money, the bragging rights won't even buy me a cup of coffee, and although it can be frustrating, there have been times in a round that it doesn't pick up a shot I KNOW I hit bad, so the Golf Gods even things out.

[Ahecht415]

I vote to remove rewinds from tournament play. If you have a misread that is either on you and your launch monitor or an aspect of the challenge. Sometimes things don’t go your way in al sports. It’s the only way to create a true even playing field.

I use skytrak and and I think many would argue it’s the most unreliable. For me, on skytrak, I would have no complaints getting rid of rewinds.

Another good option would be limiting rewinds to 1 per round or per tournament (whether it’s a misread or not). I’m not sure that’s possible though.

[mthunt]

De

I vote to remove rewinds from tournament play. If you have a misread that is either on you and your launch monitor or an aspect of the challenge. Sometimes things don’t go your way in al sports. It’s the only way to create a true even playing field.

I use skytrak and and I think many would argue it’s the most unreliable. For me, on skytrak, I would have no complaints getting rid of rewinds.

Another good option would be limiting rewinds to 1 per round or per tournament (whether it’s a misread or not). I’m not sure that’s possible though.

dead issues. No rewinds for TGC2019

[Stonebattle]

Glad to hear it's a dead issue. It seems to me the rules have be be no misreads, otherwise there is to much guess work.
I made some adjustments to my Protee setup. Must have gone the wrong way, because I managed to make things worse.