To be real or not to be real?

[Maverick]

Set Optishot for real life distances or not?

[John D]

Not sure if the Opti should be set to a higher ballflight or not

[CatMan]

All,

I want you to know I think you guys are doing some great stuff here on working out the distance issue. Take as much time as you need. The guidelines in place will be temporary until we come up with a united solution. Reading some of the work you guys are doing will not go in vane. Please take the time you need, maybe address some of the other issues Mike outlined would be good.

Thanks CatMan

[Willymakit]

So when you guys are doing these tests. Can you specify if using real ball or foam ball or no ball. Thanks.

Because there is a significant difference between all three.

It's to late now but I'm going to try and match my swing speed to proper distance. I'm thinking it will be 110 speed to 90 distance. And yes I know it can't go over a 100 but I have a feeling that's what I would need to be at to match IRl And I'm using real ball.

[MatalaWedge]

And I'm the guy who gets accused of giving ultimatums.

not referring to you buck...

[Buckeye]

Wasn't referring to you either.

[JohnMeyer]

Looks like some great work been done overnight.

Will run through numbers but more later but is looking more and more like a good basic starting point is

Stock turf, real ball 100S 90D
Stock Turf, foam ball 90S 100D
Thick turf foam ball 100S 90D

May be +- 1 or 2 % which can be tinkered but even these settings are far better than when we started

Great stuff all getting involved,

[Throttle]

Just trying to help you guys with some of my past experience....

One thing I have learned over the last couple of years of testing all these units is that you need to be careful what you actually use to baseline/calibrate the opti with. I went through a period of going to local pros and or commercial sim places taking home print outs and trying to calibrate my opti. I also tried to use my own toys (ES14 and a Swingbyte). Its a lot harder than you think. Here is what I discovered the hard way:

Not all launch monitors and simulators are alike even when it comes to measuring simple things like club and ball speed. For example GC2 (without HMT) does NOT measure club speed it only measures ball speed, so don't rely on that unit for accurate club speed unless you have HMT with it. GC2 without HMT uses a fixed smash factor of 1.46.

ES12 (owned it for a month) only measures ball speed and carry is "calculated" off of a fixed launch angle. ES14 measures club and ball speed but also just estimates cary/total distance via an assumed launch angle.

I actually did a few sessions with a GC2, Swingbyte and ES14 all at the same time and still could not get all three units to agree on club and ball speed. The ES14 was more reliable than the Swingbyte so forget about any club attached device. Even then I found that the ES14 is 5% slower on ball speed compared to the GC2. Thats radar vs camera I guess.

When I first got Protee I compared it against my ES14, a GC2 unit at my local pro and the Swingbyte (just to re-live the pain). Sure enough, Protee was a little different when it came to baIl and club speed. Only by a few mph so at least it is consistent and in the same class as GC2, trackman etc.

In summary I just accepted the fact that I truly will never really know what my real ball and swing speed is unless I jump on a GC2 with HMT or a trackman/flightscope.

Your best bet is probably to use trackman/flightscope and go from there. I doubt you'll find someone with a GC2 and HMT. Hopefully if someone on the forum has both an opti and either a flightscope/trackman, they can help out. All the other calibration attempts you guys are trying so far may lead to the same conclusions I have found. You will be chasing your tail trying to get a $400 device to accurately report a simple thing like swing speed and total distance.

Even if you do get a chance to test and calibrate the unit against those high end launch monitors, I think you will find that the opti still will be inconsistent at whatever you decide to adjust it to. You still will get the 300 yard topped/bladed drive straight down the middle that should have been a 150 yard worm burner slice in real life.

So just come up with an agreed upon standard and have fun! I am not knocking the unit, I think its great for a $400 device, but it is what it is.

[JohnMeyer]

Just trying to help you guys with some of my past experience....


Even if you do get a chance to test and calibrate the unit against those high end launch monitors, I think you will find that the opti still will be inconsistent at whatever you decide to adjust it to. You still will get the 300 yard topped/bladed drive straight down the middle that should have been a 150 yard worm burner slice in real life.

So just come up with an agreed upon standard and have fun! I am not knocking the unit, I think its great for a $400 device, but it is what it is.

Couldnt agree more, just need to get a standard that is a close a possible and have everyone use same settings ( dependant on type of ball you hit as that clearly makes a difference)

My carry distance is on average 228 yards, with 97 mph swing speed. This is verified on my Flightscope X2 launch monitor that I have for my clubfiting/making business.


Frank Hann
Engineered Golf

Frank great info on your posts, from your info it gives a ratio of 2.35 for swing speed to CARRY DISTANCE. I then was using 2.25 as swing speed to CARRY DISTANCE, then allowing 10% extra distance *( ie carry distance x 1.1) for rollout, hence 2,48.

You said your rollout was between 2 and 14 yards so say averages 8 yards, which as a percentage of your 228 carry is 3.5%, which I would consider a little low

However even using those numbers your TOTAL AVG DISTANCE for 97 MPH would be 236yards (228 carry, 8 rollout) giving a RATIO of 2.43.


As I say I personally think on the fairways of the courses were "playing" here we'd get a bit more rollout so think 2.48 is pretty close to your 2.43 based on flightscope, basically gives 5% more total distance due to my estimation of the increased rollout.

I think this info from Frank has provided some very strong evidence - based on Flightscope that if we can get the settings to:

A - Give a Swing Speed to Total Distance ratio of 2.45 - 2.5

&

B Give an accurate Swing Speed reading

we will have a pretty accurate rendition of real life golf, as backed up by flightscope date, generic maths and real life experience

To acheive A and B so far from testing I think the settings and therefore guidance should be

1. Real Ball, Stock Turf - 100 Speed, 89% Distance.................... Speed Reads correct distances are long due to incorrect ratio
2. Real Ball, Thick Turf - 108 Speed 89% Distance......................Speed Reads slow by 8%, distances are long, due to incorrect ratio

3. Foam Ball, Stock Turf - 89% Speed, 89% Distance................Speed Reads fast by 11%, distances are long due to incorrect ratio
4. Foam Ball, Thick Turf - 97% Speed, 89% Distance................Speed Reads fast by 3%, distances are long due to incorrect ratio

I would also add a caveat that any individuals settings may be adjusted to a personal level ONLY if evidence from an external device, ie TRACKMAN/GC2/FLIGHTSCOPE etc can prove without doubt that a persons Swing Speed is not being accurately read by Optishot and an adjustment away from the settings above is required. This change would need to be approved by the Board on a case by case basis

These still need ironing out as for some reason we have had results where just Foam Ball Stock Turf only required Speed to be set at 89%and Distance left at 100%, and this made the distances correct as the ratio here was correct, but when using a Thick Turf the ratio was wrong, even though should in effect give the same ratio as the same ball setting and the same Distance %

Really need some testing by people using 3. Stock turf and foam balll, but think we can be near certain that the setting for 1 and 4 are pretty much there, give or take 1% due to statements earlier in the post

2 Has had no testing and not sure if anyone is even setup like that, but would make sense, as when on foam ball setting, there is an 8% decrease in speed reading when using thick as opposed to standard turf, so would expect the same to apply when using thick turf using real ball setting, hence the speed boost by 8%

Hopefully plenty of people will be able to get on their Optishots today and hit a few at the setting above, using the settings that relate to your individual setup and see where we are

Again, brilliant work by so many people, hope Im summarising it all as you all see it and look forward to hopefully getting something we can all agree will improve the realism and experience of this sim. Im sure we all agree we are limited by hardware and software, its only $400 level stuff, but from the figures we've seen I think we can get something pretty impressive out of it

[JohnMeyer]

Mike,

As per your points. great work.

We will need to come up with the following:
- Fixed Driver Speed & Distance settings for regular driver on Real Ball - Settings 1 and 2 depending on turf type
- Fixed Driver Speed & Distance settings for regular driver on Foam Ball - Setting 3 and 4 depending on turf type
- Fixed Driver Speed & Distance settings for regular driver for No Ball (if we allow people to play with no ball) - I would say no ball data is so hit and miss may not be possible
- Fixed Driver Speed & Distance settings for driver using a 3 Wood (for the ceiling height clearance issue) - Needs testing
- Also for Drives only we only want to allow Shot Type on regular height. Because we all know if you move shot type higher you gain 15 yards or so. - I think this only has an effect due to wind, arguably should go 15 yards less if wind in your face ? Hopefully all tesing been done with no wind so figures all ok. Ill go with majority on this

[fhann]

Throttle quite rightly pointed out that a GC2 without HMT will not measure clubhead speed and only provides an estimate based on a preset number in its algorithm. To properly correlate the Optishot (swingspeed and ball speed plus carry or total distance), one would need to pair the Optishot directly with a:

Trackman
Flightscope

Please note that even using a GC2 with HMT will result in questionable readings since the flash from the GC2 most likely will interfere with the infra-red sensors on the Optishot.

I have a Flightscope X2C and the Optishot unit that are presently paired together, as I have explained earlier.

In an earlier post I had made about total distance and carry distance versus clubhead speed and smash factors (Post # 362), which was analyzed by JohnMeyer, (Post #381), I did note that my course is always soft, which severely limits roll-out distance after the ball lands. I get another 8 yards additional roll-out when I play the other golf course in my city which has turf conditions that I would rate as average in firmness and height of grass-cut.

Best regards,

Frank Hann
Engineered Golf

[JohnMeyer]

Hi all,

Did some more testing today with regards the 3 wood so heres my current positions and suggested guidelines.

1. Real Ball, Stock Turf - 100 Speed, 89% Distance.................... Speed Reads correct distances are long due to incorrect ratio

2. Real Ball, Thick Turf - 108 Speed 89% Distance......................Speed Reads slow by 8%, distances are long, due to incorrect ratio

3. Foam Ball, Stock Turf - 89% Speed, 89% Distance................Speed Reads fast by 11%, distances are long due to incorrect ratio *

4. Foam Ball, Thick Turf - 97% Speed, 89% Distance................Speed Reads fast by 3%, distances are long due to incorrect ratio

5. If using a 3 wood instead of Driver due to Height Restrictions add 9% to the SPEED % setting relating to your ball and turf configuration above

6. Everything other than Driver must be set to real world distances varying speed and distance settings accordingly, however 3 wood and 5 wood must not exceed Speed % relative to your own personal ball and turf setup, but Distance settings may be up to MAX 100% Distance Setting. All other irons must be set to real world distances

Any individual Driver, 3 or 5 wood settings may be adjusted to a different % ONLY if evidence from an external device, ie TRACKMAN/GC2/FLIGHTSCOPE etc can prove without doubt that a persons Swing Speed/Distance is not being accurately read by Optishot and an adjustment away from the settings above is required. This change would need to be approved by the Board on a case by case basis

All Players must record there rounds and if requested make them available for review by the Board. Anyone found in breach of the above settings or using settings for any club to falsely signigficantly improve their ability or gameplay (ie, hitting a PW 250 yards) shall be removed from the tournament and face further action as the Board do see fit.

Obviously all the above needs some thorough testing by multiple individuals, ideally hitting 10 Swings on the Driving Range, and then posting the average Swing Speed and Distance Figures just to make sure were close but I think we shouldnt be far off

Only one that bothers me is 3, as that may well be 89% Speed, 100% Distance. I dont know why it would be 100% Distance as Thick Turf foam ball we are pretty sure is 89% just like real ball but that as I said earlier is the one we need to get right as a lot of people hit that setup.

Would appreciate some 3 wood testing too, when using 3 wood but having Optishot set to driver. I found that 9% Speed increase (ie 109% for me gave me identical Swing Speed readings to when I was using my Driver with Optishot set to Driver. This however could be 3 wood specific, Im not sure

My 3 wood testing regarding actual 3 wood settings gave me averages of

When set to 100 S, 100 D

Swing Speed 92, Avg Distance, 231, which gives ratio of 2.51, so not a million miles off. I never normally carry or use a 3 wood though but think those setting for me seemed OK, maybe wrong but based on that I would say these should be set to Speed ratio as per Driver but Distance can be anything up to 100%


Look forward to hearing your views.

[fhann]

Mike,

- Also for Drives only we only want to allow Shot Type on regular height. Because we all know if you move shot type higher you gain 15 yards or so. - I think this only has an effect due to wind, arguably should go 15 yards less if wind in your face ? Hopefully all testing been done with no wind so figures all ok. Ill go with majority on this

In real life, wind conditions into a headwind will reduce the carry distance far greater than increasing the distance when hitting downwind. To get an idea what one could expect from wind conditions using a driver, use the Trajectoware software. OptimalFlight software is even a better alternative because it can even track/predict higher launching shots from irons. I have OptimalFlight, Trajectoware, Ken Tanner's ball flight modelling software, Mike Duplika's ball flight modelling software, and Tom Wishon's Trajectory Profiling software. My favorite all-round choice is Optimal Flight but when modelling just woods then Tractoware is great because I can just easily adjust the parameters by scrolling on my mouse and seeing the affect the change(s) make on the shot trajectory.

Best regards,

Frank Hann
Engineered Golf

[JohnMeyer]

In real life, wind conditions into a headwind will reduce the carry distance far greater than increasing the distance when hitting downwind. To get an idea what one could expect from wind conditions using a driver, use the Trajectoware software. OptimalFlight software is even a better alternative because it can even track/predict higher launching shots from irons. I have OptimalFlight, Trajectoware, Ken Tanner's ball flight modelling software, Mike Duplika's ball flight modelling software, and Tom Wishon's Trajectory Profiling software. My favorite all-round choice is Optimal Flight but when modelling just woods then Tractoware is great because I can just easily adjust the parameters by scrolling on my mouse and seeing the affect the change(s) make on the shot trajectory.

Best regards,

Frank Hann
Engineered Golf

Checked out trajectoware and just as you said 12mph, on a 105 SS drive, carrying 247 Yards, head wind reduced carry distance by 15 yards, but tail wind of 12mph increased it by 10 yards.

How much this sort of wind would effect drive on Optishot at the different trajectories remains as far as I know untested and I cant really be bothered to find out. Personally I never change mine as either forget or just get used to playing the wind. You could argue it take a certain level of skill to be adjusting trajectories and still hitting the distances you want etc, although I think for drives its purely change to gain distance obviously, so could argue that its fixed.

With regards to Optisoft the ease at which we can change our trajectory is an issue, as obviously far more difficult in real life to do it accurately, but it can be done in real life by tee height, ball position etc etc and with regards Mikes suggestion regarding fixing trajectory,you could get people who when the wind is a tail wind would tee it high and when wind in face would tee down. That would effect the trajectory in real life so see no problem doing it on Opti

However the way the wind affects the ball on Optishot is certainly more pronounced than in real life so there is an argument to say it cannot be adjusted during a round for drivers, but again its another thing to police and just don't think personally its worth the hassle at this stage.

Main thing I think for now is to get everyone hitting the "correct" yardages with no wind conditions to effect it, then look at trajectory policing in another thread.

Just my personal view, and could be looked at Im sure

[fhann]

And as spin increases, the greater the affect headwind has on limiting the distance. High lofted irons really get killed distance wise into a stiff headwind.

[Joe_S]

Did some testing now..

First I checked my real life distances with a Bavarian "earthview" site to measure where my drives are normally (with this software you can measure distances in a satellite view, so I only have to locate my normal drives on every hole and measure to the men's tee). The result is an average drive distance (with roll) of about 225 meters (246 yards). I really thought my drives are longer... Hmmm.. not being alone here... ;-)
Then set SS to 90 and Distance to 100. The average SS (10 shots) then was 90 mph and the average distance 227 meters (248 yards). Another 10 shots with this settings: Average SS 90 and average distance 250 yards.
Setting SS to 100 and Distance to 90 (10 shots): Average SS 101 mph and average distance 232 yards.
All shots with AlmostGolf Balls and setting "foam ball".

So I think SS 90 and Distance 100 seems to match with my real life measures (with driver and ball on long tee). If I tried to hit the ball extremely low I thought the SS was measured a bit higher. But with a normal swing on normal driver tee my setting seems to be ok.
I don't want to learn to drive as low as possible to achieve higher SS readings... ;-)

Update with additional settings:
SS 89, Distance 100: Average SS 89 mph, average distance 249 yards (20 shots)
SS 89, Distance 89: Average SS 89 mph, average distance 228 yards (10 shots)

[JohnMeyer]

Did some testing now..

First I checked my real life distances with a Bavarian "earthview" site to measure where my drives are normally (with this software you can measure distances in a satellite view, so I only have to locate my normal drives on every hole and measure to the men's tee). The result is an average drive distance (with roll) of about 225 meters (246 yards). I really thought my drives are longer... Hmmm.. not being alone here... ;-)
Then set SS to 90 and Distance to 100. The average SS (10 shots) then was 90 mph and the average distance 227 meters (248 yards). Another 10 shots with this settings: Average SS 90 and average distance 250 yards.
Setting SS to 100 and Distance to 90 (10 shots): Average SS 101 mph and average distance 232 yards.
All shots with AlmostGolf Balls and setting "foam ball".

So I think SS 90 and Distance 100 seems to match with my real life measures (with driver and ball on long tee). If I tried to hit the ball extremely low I thought the SS was measured a bit higher. But with a normal swing on normal driver tee my setting seems to be ok.
I don't want to learn to drive as low as possible to achieve higher SS readings... ;-)

Joe that looks like another one with foam balls and stock turf who is speed 89%, distance 100%

If possible joe could you please try these exact settings

Swing Speed % - 89%, Distance % - 100%

Hit 10 drives and then post Av Swing Speed recorded and Av Distance, taken from stats screen accessed from bottom right menu in optishot

Once you've noted these click delete all to clear all stats from that session so far and and then change your settings to

Swing Speed % - 89%, Distance % - 89%

Hit 10 drives and then post Av Swing Speed recorded and Av Distance, taken from stats screen again,

Just want to compare the 2 different sets of data

Cheers bud